Alison Cook, Using Imagination to Heal

Jessica Honegger [00:00:03] Hey, there, welcome to Going Scared. I'm Jessica Honegger, founder of the world changing brand Noonday Collection, and I am so glad to have you here for today's conversation. Our Going Scared Community gathers here every week for direct and honest conversations that help you live a life of courage by leaving comfort and going scared. Well, welcome back to Know Thyself. These short 30 minute conversations are going to give you the ability to step out of your own experience, observe your feelings and with compassionate curiosity choose how to respond instead of being a reactor, which I do a lot, a lot, a lot. And I am super excited about today's guest because her book Boundaries for Your Soul has guided me over the last probably 15 months now: Alison Cook. Alison Cook is a psychologist, speaker and the coauthor of Boundaries for Your Soul: How to Turn Your Overwhelming Thoughts and Feelings Into Your Greatest Allies. I have loved getting to know her on Instagram. She answers questions from her followers on a regular basis on all things mental health and has just a really engaging and very, very encouraging feed. So I'd encourage you to go give her a follow over there. Today, we are talking about a framework that her book is based off of, and it's been an extremely helpful framework for me. It's called internal family systems. In fact, I was unknowingly using this psychological framework when I named the Mean Girls In My Head, the Itty Bitty Baloney Sauce Committee, which you guys will recognize if you have read Imperfect Courage. I love this conversation with Alison, where we introduce you to a framework you might not have heard of before, but is one of the most helpful frameworks that I have discovered. So I can't wait for you to join in as we learn about how to have boundaries for your soul. Though I have such a thing for therapist Alison, I am I am bursting, I am so excited about this conversation.

Alison Cook [00:02:16] Oh, I love it, Jessica, you're awesome. I love. I love the way that you love and are so open to the process of therapy.

Jessica Honegger [00:02:23] Well, so my therapist friend, I, he was really a friend and mentor, and then I was calling him in states of not goodness. And he kind of finally said, I, you know, I get paid for this like therapist. I was like, OK, Curt, but he recommended your book Boundaries for the Soul. Yeah, and Internal Family Systems. And I had been familiar with internal family systems, but I don't find too many people that are. And I have to say that that framework has been one of the most transformational frameworks that I've ever worked in before.

Alison Cook [00:03:04] Yeah, it's amazing. Same with me when I discovered it around 10 years ago, and it's really growing in popularity, in the larger culture. It's less known, I think, in faith based communities. So that was the source of our book. And Curt was so graciously recommended it and endorsed it, and he's been wonderful. I adore everything he does, but it's what we were trying to do is take this model of therapy and integrate it with a faith perspective because folks in faith communities weren't as familiar with it. The movie, the Pixar movie Inside Out, if people have seen that is a wonderful representation of it. Just kind of this idea of these little voices inside your head.

Jessica Honegger [00:03:45] Well, I'm glad you brought up a concrete example because I was going to be vulnerable and go first, and I want to just share with our listeners what this looks like. Because I'm the type of person when I was a kid and I would get a work sheet, I would never read the directions. I would go straight to the example. Mm-Hmm. So I wanted to give an example of how this has worked in my own life, and I have been working kind of with someone else, a friend who also read your book. And I was just recently spending time with her and we were like, in real time doing this with each other sort of naturally. And that is the power of this model, OK? So we have in this model and I'm going to get Alison to break all of this down. Exile, manager, and firefighter and I have a part of me that feels alone and like no one's there to help her, and she pays a lot of attention to the people that aren't paying attention to her. And as I got in touch with this part of me, Curt led me through an imagination exercise and I realized that this little girl, this part of me, was five years old in kindergarten, sitting on a swing by herself, and there was a group of kids behind her pointing at her and saying, You're so fat, you're so fat. And I remember this little girl, you know, running to the teacher wanting to get out of the situation and the teacher not really being there to help her. So Curt had me go back and sit on the swing. Took me there, which is not really what you want to do. So I don't want to scare you guys away from this because it is brave work. It's brave work. So went back right to that place it. It was like I was there. And then he said, I want you to invite a couple of people in to come to the playground. I want you to imagine some of your safe friends that and they're six years old, they're in kindergarten and I want you to invite them in. And so I just I saw them walk through that back gate. A couple of them, they sat beside me, they started playing with me and so then we're very much doing this work of like, what does that feel like? What is your body feel like now that they're there? And then he asked this question What about the kids that are pointing their finger at you? And I said, I, I didn't. I don't even notice them anymore because my attention was now on these people. I wasn't alone. I was resourced. And that is so much of the work that I have been doing. And then recently I was with a friend. He was been doing a bit of this work as well on her own, and I was talking with her. I was sharing with her story and I could feel that shame part of me that said, You're talking too much, you're taking up too much space and you know, you need to give her a chance to talk. You're talking too much. And so I just said, Hey, I'm just aware right now that I have this part of me that is telling me that I am talking too much. And she does not want to let me talk anymore and in this and looked at me. And she said she just spoke right to that part, and this is because she's been doing this work. And so she said, I just see I just see her. I see that part of you, that shame. And I just want to say, you're safe here. You don't need to protect Jessica anymore. And then we just carried on with our conversation. That, to me, is the paradigm shift because I even have a chapter if I could go back and write in my own book Imperfect Courage, I talk about, you know, having that, I call it the itty bitty bullshit committee, the itty bitty baloney sauce committee like living in our heads. And it's all these girls that are sitting at the lunch table. But I actually would yell at them and I'd say, sit down. And I think what this paradigm has done is help me to see and have compassion for all of these different parts. And I hope, I hope we have not lost you guys. I mean, I've had this podcast for three years and people have seen me go there, you know, I have therapists on, but I just want people to really dive into this framework because I'm telling you it can be transformational. So with that, with those two conversations in mind that I just set out for you, I would love for you to share what is the internal family systems framework?

Alison Cook [00:08:10] Well, there's a couple. Those are beautiful examples, and it's beautiful that you're able to do it in friendship because that was our goal. When I wrote this book with Kim, we had been similar to what you experience with your friend. We've been starting to operate this way with each other. So it's really it is a trauma informed therapeutic model and it goes deep into memory. And so you touched on that in one of your stories. And it's also what I love about your second story just a way of being in the world. It's a way of communicating with a spouse, with a child where you speak on behalf of a part. And so this is the big thing in the IFS model. It's an internal family. [00:08:47]We have this internal family of parts that our job is to parent and heal and restore. And so when I have a part of me that's annoyed with a kid or a spouse or friend, even right, instead of speaking from that part where we were angry or aggressive, or we make a mistake because a man, just as you did with your friend, there's a part of me right now that's feeling this way. It's not all of who I am. So much of me loves you and adores you, even though this part of me right now is just frustrated. It's this way of we're multifaceted people, and two things are true at once. I can love you and feel a certain way in this moment. And so it allows for that, that complexity of who we are and how everybody is. [52.5s] And so I really I also just love this model. So the two things that you talked about that you touched on in your story. So I'll first touch on the deeper where you go back into the past. Right. You're talking about memory and what we're learning and trauma work is that so much is stored in memory. And so you picked up a burden there, Jessica, in that memory of when you were very young of being bullied of being taunted, right? And no matter how much rationally you can tell yourself, that shouldn't matter to me anymore. There's a stored memory there that operates beneath the surface. And we know now that this is true of all of us and sort of gets embodied.

Jessica Honegger [00:10:29] It truly is embodied. And I do want to say really quick trauma because I'm raising these Gen Z ers. And I mean, they throw this word around like, Yeah, I was traumatized today, and I'm like, OK, I want us to say, Hey, trauma is any time when you have felt overwhelmed alone and with no agency on how to get out. Or is that how would you describe trauma just in case people need a little bit of a refresher?

Alison Cook [00:10:57] Yeah, I agree with you. The word gets thrown around a lot right now. I think there's I tend to look at big T trauma. We in the past that the real the amazing book on this is the Body Keeps the Score. I highly recommend it's been on the bestseller list for years that where he really Bessel van der Kolp really went through and talked about how most of us have picked up wounds. Maybe wounds is a better word. [00:11:21]And so a big T Trauma we tend to think of as a parent abusing us or a violent act or witnessing something just horrific where, as you say, we are out of control, our power has been taken away and it's terrorizing, right? That's the big T trauma. But there's also these little T traumas more like being in a family where parents just don't pay attention to you or having feeling left out of a crowd. Right. And so maybe it's not that big trauma, but there's a wound there any time where you feel helpless, as you say, lack of agency and an even more to the point you create a message about yourself in response to that occurrence that isn't true. [44.1s]

Jessica Honegger [00:12:06] And it's funny how you're perceiving that situation because you can have. The same kid goes through the same thing, but if they didn't feel alone and they felt resourced and they felt, you know, due to whatever else may be a secure attachment with our parents or a secure attachment with the teacher empowered to say no, you know, then that's what I'm going to remember that that's not going to get stored as a trauma in their bodies. But these so don't, you know, let's not compare trauma. So it is about how you have really like something's got encoded in your body. And it's sort of what you sense, right? When you're under duress. It's like those first things that you don't even have to be under duress, do you? To kind of feel these embodied encoded recurring roles?

Alison Cook [00:12:49] We just carry these and carry them. Bessel van der Kolk calls them traces right. They're just these traces that operate under the surface in the assessment of we call them burdens. Their parts of us that pick up burdens and these burdens can be beliefs. You know, I'm not good enough. I'm bad. These burdens can be feelings, you know, just a vague feeling of I just I'm always lonely and I share that one a lot, you know, just this vague feeling. So it's a part that's picked up a burden and usually memory. [00:13:21]We have these random memories. It's like, why do I remember this? I have like these random memories, like when I was in sixth grade or seventh grade and didn't make the basketball team I. And that does not seem like a trauma at face value, but it's this memory I've carried with me. But I created a meaning in that moment about myself that I carried with me into adulthood. I'm not good enough. And so this is where you start to pay attention to these kind of tug at the corners of your of your soul. These beliefs, these feelings. And that's a cue. We call them trailheads. It's a cue that that some part of you in the IFS terminology has picked up a burden along the way that needs your attention and care that needs your healing. [43.6s]

Jessica Honegger [00:14:06] OK, now let's get into the model. So we've got burdens, and then we have exiles, managers, and firefighters in this model. You describe those?

Alison Cook [00:14:17] Yes. So there's three categories of parts. So according to the model, we have this family of parts and there's three categories. [00:14:24]Managers are the parts of us that we are most familiar with. They're the parts of us that want to produce, achieve, perform. Get me out of bed. Show up for work on time. [9.0s] Make other people think I'm OK, right? These are the parts of us. Their goal is to prevent pain and to keep us safe. They're protectors. And they're not bad. None of these parts are bad. They all have value. They're all important. The problem is they get extreme and I'll get into that. [00:14:51]The second category, these firefighters, these parts of us, are the parts that want to put out the flames of pain. So they're the parts of us that want to shut down, escape a void, right? [11.5s] And so what I notice is we tend to vacillate between the managers and the firefighters where we're like, all in, OK, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great producer for. I'm look at me, look at me, I'm doing great. And then at the end of the day, we're just going to shut down escape binge watch, you know, whatever the thing is, that makes us feel better. And so most people are kind of bouncing between those two work hard, do what I need to do to get the job done in the world and then just shut down. And so there's this third category of parts, and they're such important parts of us, but they're the parts we often don't want to face. [00:15:36]And these are what in the IFS model are called exiles and these are the parts of us that we try to push away because they harbor the feelings, they harbor, the pain, they harbor the stress, the fear, the shame, the sometimes we exile anger, but they exile these painful feelings. [18.6s] Often they're stuck in the past, like in your story, right? They're stuck in the past with the shame narrative, but sometimes they're just in the present. It's like, I'm exhausted, but I don't want to feel that. So I'm just going to go for the bag of cookies, right? And so the goal of the model is harmony. All three categories are important, and we all three have a role to play. But what we want to do with those exiles is bring them in closer. So. [00:16:24]And then the key the key part of this whole model is at the center is what we call in the IFS model the self. And it's you at your best. It's the wise parent inside of you that knows how to lead and that, you know, it's the conductor. You know, you think of the conductor of an orchestra that takes all these disparate parts and creates harmony. That's who you are at your core. But it gets all covered over when we're just kind of living out of these parts. So the goal is self leadership. [33.5s] And what that might look like. So for example, like today, you know, a part of me will say, I want to show up and give it my best. You know, talking to Jessica today, right? Another part of me might be thinking about something else that happened last night, so when I'm leading myself, I can say, You know what? That thing that happened last night is so valid, and I want you to know I'm going to come back to that later today. Right? But for now, I want to ask you to just step aside and give me this time to show up for work, to show up, right? So instead of denying that part of me, I'm parenting that part of me and leading those parts of me. And you know, the thing with the firefighters is I might even say, You know what? I've worked really hard today. I'm actually going to give myself some comfort. I need some rest. I need some pleasure. So those are healthy activities. We do need to escape from time to time. But that mindfulness is so different than just mindlessly scrolling or mindlessly binge watching. [00:18:06]So it's all about this leadership that is very mindful and it's intentional. And we're caring for these different parts of us as best we can throughout the day. And as you grow in this, it's really a self-awareness tool. You're learning to become aware and lead yourself well throughout the day. [19.9s]

Jessica Honegger [00:18:26] I mean, I've even heard of people that kind of create whole little worlds and names for their different parts and like, tell you, you tell it, tell me a little bit about that.

Alison Cook [00:18:36] Oh yeah. I mean, when I first encountered this model to me, I had studied psychology for years and this model was I learned about it right at the end of my Ph.D. program, and I was like, Oh, like, I was looking for it, then I didn't have to do all that schooling because it accounted for, for me, all these disparate aspects of myself. And so I had what I call my ragamuffin orphaned parts. And what I began to realize about those parts of me as I had left, I was trying to deny them they're creative parts of me, they're playful parts. I mean, they're parts of me that are a little bit of that kind of buck the system, you know, they kind of want to step out color outside the lines, and other parts of me had said, they're bad, you know? And so those parts of me sort of my, you know, my analytical or academic parts of me were sort of, you know, judging so in my hole and we use the imagination and it's different for everybody. But when you start to access your imagination, as you did in your story or in me, I had sort of this, I have this sort of, you know, part of me that holds a clipboard and has glasses on, you know, and it's kind of like tisk tisk tisking, you know, if I'm not falling into line, right? And then there's these poor little parts of me that are just like, we want to play, you know, we want to we want to come in. Both of those parts of me are valid, but they were at odds with each other. And so I had to learn how to help them get along as a parent tries to help siblings get along that have different agendas, right? [00:20:09]You know, all parts are valuable, but you're trying to kind of get to know these different parts yourself. The reason we use the imagination so much in this model is that it gets us out of that left brain and analysis. And it just brings in literally when you look at the brain and Curt's so good about this and talking about the different parts of the brain and integrating, you know, our right brain creativity with our left brain analysis, we're wanting to bring those two things together because we get a better sense of who we are and what we need in any given moment. [35.8s]

Jessica Honegger [00:20:45] So good. You know, you alluded to the faith community earlier, and I know I've noticed on Instagram you definitely speak to church hurt a lot. Thankfully, I grew up Episcopalian. I feel like it saved me from a lot of church hurt. But I wanted to talk about imagination because I will say I feel like in faith communities, we get stuck maybe in an a negative thought. Maybe it's, you know, we're anxious, OK, we're anxious. And I feel like our faith background. Maybe what we learned in youth group or Bible study says, Well, do not be anxious about anything and everything by prayer and petition present your requests to God and the peace that surpasses all understanding will guard your heart in Christ Jesus. Like you got to get your mind like it's all about your mind. But especially Curt's work about neurobiology. It's like we sense

Alison Cook [00:21:33] first, right? Yeah, emotions precede. Yeah.

Jessica Honegger [00:21:36] Emotions precede.

Alison Cook [00:21:38] Yeah, but they're not inferior. It's just both. Right?

Jessica Honegger [00:21:42] So why don't you speak to this idea of imagination? Because that is I just spent three days in group therapy with Curt and some friends, and it seemed like that was a little bit of the part that was perhaps new. Was really thinking about how we can use our imagination. And I would love for you to share like this stuff works. This is not Alison creating something. This is a framework that's been proven scientifically a framework that actually can help heal. So why don't you share a little bit about that?

Alison Cook [00:22:11] Yeah, from two different angles, I mean, I have this as a therapeutic model is evidence based. So there's that, you know, from the scientific side of things, it has been proven to be effective in so many ways, and we just know the science of it has just so caught up to this Dan Siegel's work and Curt Thompson's work and all these we need to use all aspects the integrated mind and brain, right is we're thinking. We're feeling, we're experiencing, we're sensing beings, and all of it is important. And I think that's trickling in to church culture. But you're so right, especially in the last hundred years. [00:22:47]We just emphasized right thinking and that that's just one small part of the brain. You know, we've got memory where things are sort. So if telling someone do not be anxious and it's like, OK, that's fine, great. I get that rationally. But stored in my memory is this traumatic event that ignites my fight or flight response in my nervous system. It's a physiological event. I can't think my way out of that. That is impossible. [25.6s] So what we're telling people to do is impossible. Instead, we have to go in and heal that at the site of the wound, which is what Curt was doing with you in that image. So where I will go with for those who are a little bit leery of this idea of the imagination. We talk in our book about the baptized imagination, and we got that term from C.S. Lewis. And if you think about if you've ever read the Narnia Tales or Tolkien's books, or if you're a Lord of the Rings, any of these imaginative where C.S. Lewis talks, but he got it from George McDonald, where we're sort of there's this holy curiosity where we can imagine a world and it's so biblical. We see all the time the use of metaphor, the use of analogy, the use of stories, Jesus told stories constantly. Rarely did He give us sort of analytical answer to something. He told stories. That's a part of how we're made. [00:24:11]And so we can access truth about ourselves and about the world around us by accessing this beautiful imagination that God has given us. It's just for me, and the work of healing has just been so powerful in my own work and in the work of my clients. [17.1s]

Jessica Honegger [00:24:29] OK, so we're going to get your book and then where do we begin? Because I did find I mean, that's what was so refreshing about your book as it was so practical and it was very empowering because not everyone can meet with a therapist or even a therapist that even specializes IFS. I may have some friends who are like, I want to find someone who does this and actually went to a therapist for a hot second. Who this is all she does. So I would walk in and maybe I would say like, Oh, I'm feeling fearful, and it would be like, OK, when did you first feel this? Like, it's like there was zero talk. It was all. And we it was. And it was great because I think it is different and you have to be willing to kind of surrender a little bit, let go, kind of let your mind sort of drift and imagine. And so you want to feel really safe in that space. But we get your book and let's say we grab a friend. What does this begin to look like and how we see her? I'm even thinking about, you know, I go home and let's say I'm on my third glass of wine and suddenly I'm like, OK, I'm numbing, you know, like when like, how do we begin to apply this framework just to our day?

Alison Cook [00:25:42] So you get curious. And so there's no judgment, the self-awareness piece is to go, Oh, that's interesting. I'm grabbing a third glass of wine. What's going on inside of me? And that pause is everything. Hmm. Can I just get curious? What am I feeling? What's going on? Am I tired? Am I frustrated? Am I irritated at all of a sudden you get curious and you follow that down? So curiosity is the very first step. Just getting curious about yourself with compassion. That part of me that wants to grab that glass of wine right now, what's going on? And again, you try to think of your stuff. Imagine what would I? How would I talk to my child doing something that like what? What's going on with you? It's not like you. Tell me what's going on, right? It's that compassionate presence with yourself. [00:26:34]And so the way that this work is so different is it requires you to look inside what's going on with me, with that compassionate voice. So that's the first that that's just if, if nothing else from this, it's getting curious. [13.7s] And I wonder why I'm so tense right now, and why am I speaking so harshly to my kids? You know what? Why am I? You know what's going on? And just trying to have that posture of curious, compassionate awareness and just beginning to notice and seeing if you can gain clarity in that pause. One of the things, Jessica, when you talked about when you go to see an IFS therapist, the reason it's different and I think for people of faith that the idea that a self that you can lead yourself. So you go inside of yourself to get to know, for example, the part of you that wants to grab the glass of wine as opposed to going to talk therapy, traditional talk therapy where you just talk it out on a cognitive level.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:43] Right, right, right.

Alison Cook [00:27:44] And so I have her big shift that think is a shift.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:49] I just find it to be just so effective, so much more effective than. And sometimes I do talk, you know, and that's maybe what I need, and that's OK. But when I'm really kind of willing to go to those really the exiles, you know, yeah, it's really where and when I can go back to that the little girl. I mean, I've done it in about five specific memories, and that's just what I practice. And my mind is going back to her with a couple of safe people telling her she's not alone. It's OK. [00:28:22]It ends up having you know how we remember our past is how we anticipate our future. And so if we can go back to these parts in our past, then we can actually anticipate and live into a new future. And that is beautiful. That is empowering. [15.4s]

Alison Cook [00:28:39] It takes the idea of self-care to astronomical exponential level. It's literally going in and caring for this young part of you and carrying her with you as a precious, precious child of God. And you actually experience that inside of yourself. It's not just giving it lip service, and I want the book I'm working on right now. I'm really trying to uncover this idea of what it means that we do have a core sense of self. We have this ability to with in partnership with God, right where we, you know, [00:29:17]in my faith perspective, I can't know myself apart from the God who made me, but I also can't know God if I don't know and fully inhabit myself. The two go hand-in-hand. [10.6s] And so, man, that's powerful. If I get in there and I'm like, I'm present to this young part of me who's hurting and then God's present to this young part of me, that's hurting. We're good. She might even still be hurting, but all of a sudden I know what she needs. I know how to ask for help on her behalf. I know how to protect in a healthy way. My capacity when she's hurting, I know how to lead myself. And unless I can, I can be. I can depend on people in healthy ways. Instead of looking to other people to fix me or, you know, I know what I need. I know how to ask for that. And that's a powerful shift toward agency towards self advocacy because I'm deeply, deeply rooted in myself in the best sense of that word, right to say, Oh man, this is this. And I had a friend asked me recently to help her with something a dear friend and I had to say to her, I adore you and I would go to the Moon for you, and I don't have capacity to do this thing you're asking right now. And we have that kind of relationship you were describing with your friends, you know, because I said this young part of me, I had a medical crisis a year ago and I'm coming up and the anniversary in this young part of me is reliving some of that terror. And I said to my friend, This part of me can't do it. I'm so sorry. I had, you know, had to speak on behalf of that and my friend said I get it, you know, because we speak this language. And so all of a sudden, we're not talking about boundaries. We're not talking about, you know, we're leading ourselves and then these people are coming along beside us that get it. And they go I get it. I honor you in that, you know, and it's just such a better way of being in the world and in relationship with others.

Jessica Honegger [00:31:19] Well, it really reflects a truer way of being because we really are parts, you know, and it's so compassionate to be able to say, you know, I'm in shame or instead of saying that, saying like a part of me because we can't neglect that we are these whole hearted, full human beings, and it's so powerful to get to get agency back. I feel like that's what shame takes away from us is agency, and this model really gives agency back to us. And it's so empowering. Allison, it's been amazing to talk today. I'm super excited because Allison is going to come on again and we are going to talk enneagram, which my audience is a lot more familiar with. And we're going to talk about how enneagram and IFS, sort of can be integrated together. Allison's book Boundaries for the Soul and when is your next book going to be out

Alison Cook [00:32:20] about a year from now? I'm finishing it up right now, and it'll come out, I think next September, so I'm excited about that.

Jessica Honegger [00:32:27] Wow, it is awesome. And you can follow Allison. I'm so appreciative that you are on Instagram and you guys, she just really does. I mean, like, I mean, I just feel like I just got I just went to therapy whenever I engage, especially in her stories. And it's such a community that's willing to do this work, which is powerful to get to be a part of that. And that is Alison Cook PhD, right? Yeah. Alison Cook PhD on Instagram. Well, thank you so much, Alison. Thank you, Jessica. I love it. You can find more of Alison at WWW.AlisonCookPhD.com or follow on Instagram and on Facebook at Alison Cookie HD. Today's music is by Ellie Holcomb and I'm Jessica Honegger until next time. Let's take each other by the hand and keep going scared.