Tanja Hinterstoisser, An Expert Take on the Myers-Briggs

Jessica Honegger [00:00:03] Hey, there, welcome to going scared. I'm Jessica Honegger, founder of the world changing brand Noonday Collection, and I am so glad to have you here for today's conversation. Our Going Scary Community gathers here every week for direct and honest conversations that help you live a life of courage by leaving comfort and going scared. Welcome back to the Know Thyself series. This series is your step by step guide to discover how to get to know yourself and in turn, know how to hold space better for others. Today, we are talking about one of the most well-known personality tests. What do you think it is? I am not talking about enneagram, that comes later. I'm talking about the Myers-Briggs. I feel like because of enneagram's rise in popularity, we've forgotten about this powerful tool, and I love that it's called MBTI for short because there are actually 16 different combinations of types instead of nine. But I'm not going to tell you about it because we have an expert here today, Dr. Tanja Hintersoisser. She is a counseling psychologist who has most recently focused her attention on helping others define their life and career choices through strength based self inquiry. She knows the Myers-Briggs inside and out, and she is our guide today. All right, Tanja, thanks so much for joining us for going scared.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:01:40] I'm so excited to be part of this conversation. Thank you for inviting me.

Jessica Honegger [00:01:45] So Tanja comes to us by way of Alison Kirk. And I want to tell you to come on the show to talk all about the Myers-Briggs because I feel like at least in my world enneagram has just kind of upstaged the Myers-Briggs and the Myers-Briggs has been very helpful for me, so we're going to get into that. But first, Tanja, I wanted to ask you, I know that you really do specialize and are passionate about helping people to define their life and career choices through strength based self inquiry and practices. And this series is all about self inquiry. We're calling it self-awareness, and I'm curious what you've seen over the last 18 months where people have been forced and perhaps more willing to do self inquiry? And what are some of those mindsets that you've in a positive way seen a shift? Because I feel like we talk a lot about the negative and the fear and the stress, but I'd love to hear some of the shifts you've seen your clients willing to take during this time.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:02:46] Yes, what a great question to get us started on this conversation. [00:02:51]You know, it's truly been an interesting time in which we have, I think as a global population, we've been given the gift of spending more time with ourselves in closed quarters to really spend time contemplating and thinking about who we are and who we want to be and what it is that we want to do. In the last few months I have seen in various different subpopulations of our society, people really rising up and wanting to challenge themselves to explore other opportunities than the basically given recipe that they have been instructed to follow. It's been quite interesting to just have people not necessarily question themselves and what they have done, but truly looking forward to a different future and looking ahead and trying to really envision something different for themselves.

Jessica Honegger [00:03:59] I'm going to get personal. What has that been like for you?

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:04:04] Yeah, you know, it's quite interesting because I currently work at a small, private college in Burlington, Vermont, and I feel like I have a very meaningful job. I feel rewarded every day by what I do. And at the same time, I found myself asking the same questions and wondering whether I should be stepping into something different for myself. Should I have a remote job where I can live anywhere I want and then do something entrepreneurial or something in private practice or something kind of related to what I have studied all of my life. So I know that I have been vacillating and kind of drawing the pros and cons of my possibilities. That's for sure.

Jessica Honegger [00:05:00] You know, I lead a group of women, among many other things, but we are entrepreneurs, and we encourage women to gather in person and we create a marketplace for artisan made goods. And I actually just got off a call, a Zoom webinar with them, and I talked about how fear takes us to that place in our brain where it's hard for us to envision possibility. And it's hard for us to come into self inquiry with a strengths based mindset. You know, often we focus on the negative, which, you know, psychology has taught us that the negative often sticks to us like velcro and the positive slides off of us like Teflon. So I would love for you to talk a little bit about what is a strength based, informed self inquiry look like.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:05:50] Yeah, this is how I would answer this question. [00:05:54]So you are right in that we have historically really been trained and preprogramed to value the negative, value the negative in the sense of knowing how to articulate what it is that we are not doing very well in order to define it so that we can restructure it and create something better out of that. And I would say that strength based approaches kind of eradicate that and let us start from a very different vantage point in helping us really from the get go look at our own talents and gifts, the way we perceive them to be and hone them and utilize them and train them so that we can get skilled in being able to use those talents and gifts more often than not, ideally as much as possible. But that's truly something that we have to retrain ourselves to focus on, to identify and to get to know really well so that we can more comfortably use that on a day to day basis. [80.8s]

Jessica Honegger [00:07:16] Gosh, I'm just feeling convicted right now because of a conversation I had with one of my kids last night when I was challenging him to, Hey, I know you're really smart in this area and it feels like you're not trying. And yet he told me all the other things he was doing really well. But it seems like even at such a young age, we focus on, Oh, well, if you have dyslexia, then we need to fix that, you know, or if you have this issue as a child, we need to fix that instead of coming it from this strengths based perspective of like, what are these gifts and talents that you have to offer? So how do you begin to? Because you said retrain your mind to come from a strengths based perspective, what are some of those practices that we could begin to implement? And then we'll then we'll get into the Myers-Briggs.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:08:03] Sure. Yeah, I would say there are many different ways in which in which we can really start labeling, articulating and really finding our strengths. There are techniques that you learn, even as early as you know, our childhood and teenage years. By simply starting to journal, for example, I have found that journaling really starts creating this dialogue where we get to know ourselves and our inclinations in a better way. Not necessarily from a strength based perspective, but it really helps us identify what rings true for us. Who? Who are we and what makes us happy? What makes us sad? Those kinds of things. But when I do exercises, particularly with teenagers and young adults, I often have them look at their library or their music videos or their shows that they like to watch or listen to. Because I feel like a lot of what it is that they're selecting is truly a connecting point to their own true self. And those are really little kind of just fun things that particularly younger generations like to kind of address and talk about because it's so easy and so non-threatening to really talk about. But really, when it comes to maybe us adults getting to know ourselves in terms of our strengths and attributes, we do the process of self inquiry, we start really trying to maybe take assessments like we're going to be talking about next, but also trying to do something similar. [00:09:40]It's like really focusing on a day as to what was our proudest moment of our day. What was particular achievement that we succeeded in in a day? We have them. We experience them, but we don't think take enough time to really focus on them and bring them to the surface so that they become alive. And that's, I think, one of the things that I would encourage anyone or I do encourage others to take some time to focus on. [36.3s]

Jessica Honegger [00:10:17] He has so much of becoming self aware is just taking the time to stop and notice and have that journey of self inquiry and it can be so powerful and ultimately life changing and how we show up and impact other people. If we just take that time to notice. OK, I'm going to shift us to the Myers-Briggs. So the Myers-Briggs, it is probably one of the most, you know, well known assessments. I am in the enneagram world that is just everyone's all about the enneagram. I do find that enneagram. Are you familiar with enneagram?

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:10:52] You know, to some extent. Again, you mentioned Allison Cooke, a dear friend of mine, and we have a lot of conversations about various assessments. And yes, she is a big fan of enneagram, so I'm getting to know I'm getting acquainted with it.

Jessica Honegger [00:11:06] It's a bit new to be used as an actual assessment in the psychological world, so that's probably why I was. The Myers-Briggs is a little bit more tested and tried. The Myers-Briggs I discovered in my very early 20s my husband and I, while we weren't, we weren't married at the time. We were just dating and we were about to go overseas to do development work. And so this organization gave us all of these assessments, and it's funny because I came across. Mine recently and I had just been telling someone that I was an ENT on the line of J and P, but when I came across this assessment, I took when I was 21, I was an ESTP and an ESTP is called the entrepreneur. And if you look at my life, that's pretty much what I've done. And so I wanted it. You know, let's just start by like, why don't you tell our audience, what do all of these letters mean in the Myers-Briggs?

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:12:14] Sure. So the Myers Briggs offers us the opportunity to really label ourselves based on probably 16 different personality types. And they each, as you just mentioned, have different letters. So there are four scales from introversion and extroversion, so they're depicted within a bar. So within this scale, so you lean either farther, more into the extroversion or more into the introversion, and then that extroversion introversion preference is exhibited born to kind of what energizes you as a person, like what gets your battery recharged? The second scale really looks at how you process information, and the two letters that are designated in that space is either the S or the N, so either a sensing type or an intuitive type. The third scale is represented with the letters T or F, and this one gives us a sense as to how you make decisions. So the T type, which is that thinking type, is different from the feeling type, which is the F type. And then the last scale is the judging and perceiving scale, which is the J and the P, and this is how you really make like how you deal with the external world. So this is how you really actually live and demonstrate your decision making. So those are the four different types of scales that are represented. And as you put those letters together, the Myers-Briggs has a nice little summary of the profile, and this really tells you much more about how you live, how you socialize, how you make decisions and how you really exhibit yourself in the world.

Jessica Honegger [00:14:20] I am curious, as I mentioned, I as a, you know, adult, I thought I had kind of selected different letters than what I did when I was 21. And do we change as we grow older? What does that look like?

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:14:39] We can absolutely change as we grow older. Now this is a bit of a controversial topic because the true scientists, the ones that really believe very firmly in the statistical representation of a person like you will show up a certain way every day of your life. Those do exist. Why they believe more that once you are typed in a certain way that you will remain pretty steady for the rest of your lives. [00:15:15]What I would recommend looking into is really seeing the world as a dynamic process, and many psychologists and researchers agree with this and that there are certain parts of your life that that do cause significant change. [17.6s] So we have life events, for example, and there were tons of studies coming out the 911 terrorist attack and the trauma that people experienced and how that really caused people to completely change their approaches in the way of living. We obviously also have like drugs and alcohol or just some kind of substances that we take in that they can totally alter our personalities and life approach. And then there's aging components. There's certainly also training your mind to think differently and training your body to do things differently. That can also cause us to change pretty significantly. So in general, I would say, I mean people, people believe different things in that within that spectrum of how much you change over time. But we have a core self, but we can certainly change quite significantly over time.

Jessica Honegger [00:16:39] I wanted to ask about the N and S because part of me wanted to be an N. And I mean, I have a podcast. I've written a book. I, I count myself as an intuitive person, but I am very concrete and I like to have a very direct and concrete impact on my world. I don't know. To me, maybe I'm more in the middle on those, but talk to us about that N and S spectrum.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:17:06] Yes, and I'd be actually very curious to hear what makes you want to be more N because I think a lot of people have that dilemma that they would really like to be different than what the results of them shows.

Jessica Honegger [00:17:19] Well, I'm a creative. I mean, I consider myself to be creative. I see possibility. I can look at something and see the potential in something. I do enjoy some philosophical discussions. I read a lot. I edited. So I think that's what I think of when you've read about what an N is. But then when I look at my life and kind of my even how I experience or think about my physical environment, it is a lot more sensory. So I don't know those that those two really confuse me. So maybe you can clarify that for the audience.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:17:58] Sure, I'll take a stab at it. So as I mentioned previously, S and N really identifies how we process information. This is truly getting into our brains and trying to see how is it that we perceive and process the stimulus are typically internal or external, but typically external stimulus? And what is it that we that our mind constructs to move us forward? So in your case, for example, you say you are creative and you are intuitive. So when you process information, you actually see the big picture. You actually do draw connections, you can really pinpoint at certain things, not from a very concrete perspective, but from an inferential perspective, like you can move things from point A to point B to point C very quickly, and it ends up in who knows where. The S is the part of the brain that really wants to pull information down a bit more. It wants to make things a bit more tangible and more concrete. And again, there are people that are vastly different from each other on that scale. So people who are immensely concrete in their thinking and people that are immensely creative in their thinking. In your case, like you already are suspecting, it's quite likely that you are more in the middle. That means depending on the circumstance and the situation you beat, you may be more on that s meaning on the sensing and the concrete and the realistic drawing conclusions

Jessica Honegger [00:19:41] I can relate to all of those words.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:19:42] Words, right? Or you pragmatic, pragmatic? Well, there we go. And then at times different circumstances, and we could probably look into what those circumstances may be. You may be more in the inferential place where you really want to really just let your mind go wild and explore all possibilities that are out there. So if we were to take the assessment very specifically, and I would like to see the actual kind of statistical results in that you may be may be really at the cusp of both areas.

Jessica Honegger [00:20:20] I feel that and then on the T and the F, I actually score now. This is when I was twenty one, the exact equal amount like I got, I did just as much T as I did F. So I'm also in the middle there.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:20:32] Correct. Not, not at all unusual. And I would say that's probably one of the elements that makes people a bit skeptical about the Myers-Briggs in particular. But any assessment where people are on the cusp if they don't get a very clear result, it feels like the assessment may be wrong. When really what I would suggest, it's just it just means that in your case, Jessica, it really depends on the circumstance and on the situation as to where you want to make decisions from an F perspective, from a feeling or from a T, from a thinking, OK.

Jessica Honegger [00:21:11] And then J and P, this has been the most helpful for me because I I'm a P. I do know I'm a P now. When I was raising little babies, I was highly scheduled with them. I had them on good sleeping schedules and all of that. So I think that that time I thought I was at J. But I think it was just the chaos of being a young mom with crazy little kids. I just needed to have P time and in order to have P time, you got to have your kids on a J schedule, you know what I'm saying? But my husband is definitely a J all the way. I mean, we got to be 15 minutes early to anything. I mean, 15 minutes early is actually 10 minutes late, right? Whereas I'm a time opportunist and you know, I way over-estimate the amount I can get done in a set amount of time. And then one of my kids is for sure, J and I and I was able to identify that very early. And that is where I this is where the Myers-Briggs really helped me because I knew that for this child was not helpful for me to be like where it is going to go with the flow, you know, I mean, I really had to say, here's what we are doing today. Here's what to expect, you know, and still, to this day, you know, even though this kid so much older like that has not changed. So let's talk about the J/P dynamic

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:22:35] The J/P dynamic. I love how you phrased that. So yes, the J/P dynamic to use your words is similar to the others so that J, as you mentioned, likes to follow rules and not in a pragmatic way like the S would be, but more into exhibiting schedules and timeliness and having really routines in place that can be followed. [00:23:03]That person that has a preference for a J really finds comfort and joy having everything ordered in a way that can be followed step by step. And projects really have a beginning and an end and you wrap things up. It brings them internal peace and joy to finish the day with everything wrapped up. The P person with a perceiving preference really likes things open ended. So they don't feel they have any pressure to wrap things up at the end of the day. They're quite comfortable having things open ended. If the laundry didn't get done, there is another day tomorrow where that can be taken care of and completed other things. We have multiple things, maybe even running at the same time. Not everything has to be completed and tidied and wrapped up to be OK. Ultimately, I think for that scale in particular in terms of just how we live and exhibit ourselves on a day to day basis, it's truly about what brings them the most peace and peace of mind. Some people like things wrapped up. Some people like things open ended because they're proud that they are able to multitask. [80.6s]

Jessica Honegger [00:24:26] Sometimes it stresses me out and have things wrapped up because I'm like, I like to keep my options open. You know, we'll get it all figured out that in particular, as a leader, I think is probably what can cause the biggest disconnect because I, you know, I think I have mainly Js that work for me well, because my project managers come out and project managers got to be, you know, even if they are P on this assessment, they got it. They got to show some Js, you know, timelines and all of that stuff. And oh, I think that's where I can really cause the most friction as a leader and have to kind of be in tune to that part of myself. OK, I

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:25:04] Can I say something?

Jessica Honegger [00:25:06] Please do.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:25:06] Sure. Because I think you're mentioning something quite important as a business owner and an entrepreneur for you to really know so well what it is that you have, even if you had the cusp of things, but you know, kind of your own style. It sounds to me that you have surrounded yourself and hired people to really help your business move forward. So knowing that you are a P, you know that your project manager most likely has to have a J preference and that your personal assistant perhaps has to have a J preference so that they can tidy up the loose ends that you weren't able to complete or maybe choosing are choosing not to complete. But so that the organization can move forward because we really need both. So ultimately, we really need all 16 different personality types in the world in good for the world to function as.

Jessica Honegger [00:26:05] That's so true. There's not, you know, and that's what these assessments are all about. Going back to the strengths based inquiry. It's not that one is better than the other, although the I and the S is still, I don't know why. I just think, well, being an I is just you're more interesting now and than being an S. I don't know. I don't know. I've got some hang ups on that one. But OK, so then let's end with the I and the E. I feel like this also is a line that you know, when I'm having pre-COVID, I maybe even would have said, I'm an introvert, but I think that's because I was just getting so much extroversion and I was traveling so much, speaking at conferences, whatever. And then the pandemic hit, and then I'm stuck in my house and I'm like, Oh, no, I'm an extrovert. This is not working for me. And then I'm seeing my husband. He's like, I'm alive.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:26:56] I am now fully alive. And he's

Jessica Honegger [00:27:00] such I mean, we seriously are like almost complete

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:27:02] opposite sometimes for, yeah.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:05] But I do think that this one in particular, the I/E has been maybe what people have become even more aware of during the pandemic, especially during social isolation. Tell me what you've seen there.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:27:17] Yeah, it's definitely a good start to the conversation as to how things are going for you, right? [00:27:24]And you hear a lot of people respond and say, Well, the extrovert in me is just going stir crazy. And the introverts are saying, this is I'm having the time of my life. I don't have to go anywhere. I can stay in my pajamas. So it's quite easy for people to really attach to those two constructs in particular. And I think the popularity of really of of the Myers-Briggs personality type, the instrument itself has become part of that kind of intrigue about extroversion and introversion. [35.2s]

Jessica Honegger [00:28:00] That's true.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:28:02] Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting set of dual construct because think about what the what purpose they fulfill. They really try to label what gives us energy, what gets us psyched about the day and excited about starting the day. The extroverts are really looking forward to the engagements with the outer world. Like, how many people will I meet? How many meetings am I going to have? When am I going to get to socialize with my friends? Like they truly try to see all the ways in which they can interact with others and be with others during the day, that gets them excited. If they knew that with COVID now, they had to stay at home. It is truly like, I'm sure, even as an introvert, you have felt the claustrophobia of being inside and not feeling like you are allowed to go outside and meet with anyone. That's pretty anxiety producing that really just makes you want to crawl out of your skin and be like, I need to see my friends, I need to see my family. It's really anxiety provoking. Now for the introvert it's the other way around, and both have so much value if we learn to value it. So that's where it comes back to the strengths and to also you mentioned being married to an opposite to really having you value and appreciate each other's preferences and giving everyone the space to be that

Jessica Honegger [00:29:45] Well and to speak for the introverts because I have to clear introverts in my family. They just love people. It's just small. They just want a few deep relationships. That's all that they need. It's not that they just want to be alone all the time. I mean, they do need more time alone, but they're not hermits. I feel like introverts kind of get a bad rap, and it's probably because our world is kind of set up. I mean, going back to school age again, I mean, we're set up to go to a classroom and be around a bunch of people. I mean, the world is set up to be around a bunch of people, but introverts, they can, they can hang with people. It's just a smaller amount.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:30:26] Yeah, I think you're right. [00:30:28]I think society wise, I think especially in the United States, I would say it's such an act like gregarious, extroverted place, right with a concert halls with a football, games with like being out in the community, the university, I mean, everything is really geared towards people valuing extroverts. And you're right with introverts. Introverts really enjoy one on one time, and they typically do have a few but very cherished and perhaps even long standing friends going back into early childhood. [34.7s] Again, we are generalizing. We're really just drawing the the paradigms for those with the most pronounced types. But introverts really need to know that and need to be known as introverts and need to be told that it is OK to not want to go party, to not need to be out in the world all the time. And I feel like COVID gave them the opportunity to really just kind of relax and be fully. They seize the opportunities of being their full introverted selves.

Jessica Honegger [00:31:38] Mm-Hmm. And this is where this is such a good tool because again, you know, with one of my kids who is in school all week, that is a highly extroverted activity. And so on the weekends, this child needs that fill time to be alone. Whereas my high school experience was all about friends, friends, friends, and it's easy to put my story onto this kid and be like, Well, what's wrong? Instead of say, like, Oh my gosh, this kid just needs to unplug. And that is how they were created, and I need to honor that. And that's what's so powerful about these assessments. It's not just about self inquiry, but it really is self-inquiry in order to be a better human, a better partner, a better parent, a better friend, a better leader, and that's what's so powerful. Thank you so much for joining us today to share everything about the Myers-Briggs.

Tanja Hintersoisser [00:32:28] You are more than welcome. It was fun talking about it.

Jessica Honegger [00:32:35] All right, now, you got to go take the test if you haven't already. You can go find the Myers-Briggs test just by Googling it. You'll find it on several different websites. And I want to know what combination do you identify with? Hop on over to Instagram. Let me know. I vacillate between ENFP and ESTP. Anybody else out there? Ya wanna find you can find me. Jessica Honegger today's music is by Ellie Holcomb and I'm Jessica Honegger until next time. Let's take each other by the hand and keep going scared.