The Habit of Finances with Erin Skye Kelly

Jessica Honegger [00:00:03] Hey, there, welcome to going scared. I'm Jessica Honegger, founder of the world changing brand Noonday Collection, and I'm so glad to have you here for today's conversation. Our Going Scared community gathers here every week for direct and honest conversations that help you live a life of courage by leaving comfort and going scared. So how many of you need courage to talk about finances? I know, I sure do. And my husband has been tapping me on the shoulder for a while saying, Hey babe, it's time for our recap of last year and look forward to next year. And I think we're both a little scared. But Erin Skye Kelly gave some brilliant advice today on how to take the tension out of that conversation, and I can't wait for you to hear about that. Erin Skye Kelly is a financial expert, and her life's mission is about removing the shame and frustration of finances and empowering you to make money decisions that you are proud of. And I love what she talks about is really defining what your personality style is in relation to finances, and she really admits that it's not one size fits all, which really ties in with our first episode that kicked off this whole series with Gretchen Rubin, who said, Hey, the way you do habits might be really different than the way someone else does them, and it is about finding out what works for you, because if you're not sticking with a habit, then that actually defeats the purpose. So it's important to find out what helps you stick with habits in the long haul. Financial habits are really important because that's ultimately what this is about. Financial decisions are about behavior and behavior is about habits. So much is in today's conversation. OK, Erin we are, as you know, in the middle of a habit series, and when I was talking to my team about, OK, what are all the habits we want to cover my young new assistant who's also helping to produce the podcasts, Carson, she's I think, twenty four, twenty five. And she said, we have to have Erin Skye Kelly on the show.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:02:29] Aww Carson, that's so sweet.

Jessica Honegger [00:02:30] Yes, yes. So she was like, we have to have her on the show. She's helped so much in how I approach finances. So I kind of wanted to start there because we are all in different seasons of finances, and she's definitely in a different season at, you know, 24 25 than I am with a daughter that just turned 16 today, which is crazy. And I, yes, I kind of wanted to break it down by what are those financial habits that you recommend for these various financial seasons of life that most of us go through?

Erin Skye Kelly [00:03:05] Well, I love that you're prefacing all of this with habits because [00:03:09]I think one of the most critical pieces is really understanding that money is more about behavior than it is about anything else, right? And we can often look at money and think, Oh, math, math, math that we kind of put it aside. But you're right, it absolutely is a habit if you want to master it. So I think like whether or not you have a ton of debt or whether or not you're starting out or whether or not you're building wealth, the same money habits for success are going to apply, and the first one is to absolutely know where it is that you are today. Like, Where are you starting out? What's happening? Like, what is your relationship to money look like? And then really getting a clear picture of like, where do you want to go? [37.0s] Because just like anything else, right? I know you've done like sleeping habits, and I know you've talked about all those other things, right? Like, you have to kind of have a vision for what you want your ideal scenario to look and feel like before, you know, if you're setting things up correctly or not. So the first thing I would have anybody do is do a net worth statement and you can do that, you know, on a spreadsheet, on an app, on a, you know, on a bujo, you can there's a bunch different ways you can do.

Jessica Honegger [00:04:10] I don't even know what a bujo is.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:04:15] Carson will tell you, it's

Jessica Honegger [00:04:16] I don't know.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:04:17] I only learned I learned from a 20 year old what a bujo was, but it's a bullet journal, so it's basically like a journal where you capture...Maybe they're not calling it bujo anymore. I'm not.

Jessica Honegger [00:04:28] No, no. I bet they are. No, my son asked for bujo, like two years ago, he was like 11 years old.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:04:35] Oh, that's cool. That's cool. [00:04:37]So you just basically add up all of the assets, which are all of the things you own. And then you add up all of the liabilities to all of the things you owe and you subtract those two numbers and that equals your net worth. And that gives you a clear picture as to where you're starting today. And then from there, all we have to do every month is make that go up by a dollar or more, ideally more. But if it's going up by a dollar or more, you're killing it. [21.8s]

Jessica Honegger [00:04:59] OK, that's amazing. I love that. That is a habit that we can. All is feels very attainable. What about assets like? What are all the things that, you know, because I'm thinking about someone who might have just graduated from college? What are her assets? Is a car an asset? Or is that a that declines in value so is that considered a?

Erin Skye Kelly [00:05:18] I love how smart you are. This is so genius. Yes. OK, so the bank would consider the car an asset. But if you were trying to build wealth, you would not consider the car an asset because we define an asset as something that puts money in your pocket. And so obviously, a car every month takes money out of your pocket. Now, some people will argue, yeah, but you could sell it for cash, but that's not something that's repeatedly happening. That's like a one time thing, and you're often selling it for less than what you paid for it.

Jessica Honegger [00:05:44] So it's right now, which is crazy, right?

Erin Skye Kelly [00:05:47] That's very true.

Jessica Honegger [00:05:48] What on earth it's I'd never thought we'd see this day. OK, so it depends on your goals or how you're assessing your wealth.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:05:57] Yeah. And I mean, if you're just starting out basically like anything that you could convert for cash, you could absolutely put that on your asset column for now. But the goal would be to acquire it if you want to build wealth. The goal would be to acquire things that consistently put money in your pocket. So things like, you know, if you're going to have a rental property, the rental property must cash flow in order for it to be considered an asset. If it's taking money out of your pocket every month, it's a very expensive hobby. So we really just have to look at assets as things that actually help us. You know, in the book Get the Hell Out of Debt, I joke that you're basically raising money bunnies. So if you have a bunch of green bunnies, if you put two of them in a, you know, a little field together, pretty soon you're going to have multiple green bunnies. And that's what we want, right? Just like debt on the other side. Visa and MasterCard, those are your red bunnies, and they want you to multiply those as fast as possible. So the goal is always just to have that compound interest, which is basically the interest you're earning on the interest on that you're earning on the interest that you're earning on it just like the 99 bottles of beer on the wall song. But it's like the money that you're earning over and over repeatedly. That's what really you're trying to build when you're talking about assets. So that's the first thing you do. [00:07:00]Yes, you're going to have your net worth. And that and that alone like tracking that every week. Every month is the most amazing habit. And that's why you see like huge transformations happen in people, because it's not then so much about being perfect, it's not about getting it exactly right or whatever, it's just about paying attention to what is so good. [18.5s] Every sitting down, every week, every day.

Jessica Honegger [00:07:22] With every Starbucks, every Starbucks purchase I make, every gas.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:07:27] I think you're going to track in the beginning. In the beginning, yes, but depending. So then we move to budgeting, right? And that's what you're talking about is like those expenses, those daily expenses, the income that's coming in. So that would be on the budget. So that's separate from the net worth. But the budget's entire job is to make the net worth grow by at least a dollar every month. So for I'm a huge Starbucks, like I am embarrassingly addicted to Starbucks. They like when they see me rolling in my pajamas, they're like, Good morning Erin like, they don't even flinch anymore, right? They're like, Hey, man, I'm like, Hey, like, I'm there all the time. It's way. But that is one of the luxuries that I give myself, and I don't do other things like, I don't, you know, drink a box of wine every night after work. I don't, you know, there's lots of things that I don't do that other people would consider to be luxuries. So you can have to figure out for you in terms of spending like what are the habits that are supporting you in building that net worth and what are the habits that are taking away? [00:08:23]But in the beginning, yes, you do start tracking everything, but eventually what you do with your budget is you build the budget based on your personality. So then rather than trying to make your life fit a budget, you make your budget fit your life. [11.5s] And it's so much easier because then you're not. You really don't have to track every little penny all the time, which there are weird, freaky people out there who love to do that. Our engineer, friends

Jessica Honegger [00:08:44] My husband. Yeah, yeah, it's so funny because we've recently had a budget conversation, and this year is going to be a lot more tight for us, for both entrepreneurs, and we're already projecting our businesses. So we're like, OK, it's going to be a lot more tight for us. So what do I do? I immediately am like, How can I go make some more money? You know, like, Wait, what can I do? And his immediate reaction is, where are we going to spend less? You know, where are we going to tighten up? And we're like, totally opposite. My personality is like, I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm going to go out there. I'm going to figure out, you know, we have an airstream that we bought a few years ago where we can be renting that out. You know, like all of these things, whereas he is like, we are in a stop spending here, we're gonna stop spending here. We're just stop spending here. And I'm like, Oh, no. So what does that look like? I definitely think you're either as more of a spender or more of a saver. So when you're saying this personality thing, it scares me a little bit.

[00:09:42] Your marriage like, you're going to be fine. Okay. It really just felt like, here's the thing is, it's all a spectrum, right? So if you had married somebody else who was more of a spender than you, you might look like more of a saver. So it's basically a spectrum, right? It's not like you are one or the other. And it really does depend on the circumstances. What's really cool is we find people who love to spend tend to do really well at wealth building because they're not afraid to take risk. So they'll buy more investments and do more things because they get that same dopamine hit from, you know, buying an exchange traded fund or buying an index fund that they do from buying shoes on Amazon, for example, right? [00:10:17]So it's I think it's great that your husband's restricting. I think that's a great way to kind of, you know, tighten things up a bit to make sure your money's going as far as it can go. But the danger in doing that sometimes is that it can create a lack mentality. And when we focus on the things we don't have are the things we need to restrict, we can miss what you're talking about, which is the opportunities for expansion or abundance. [21.3s] And we have to remember, like the money is there to be had. There is enough money for everybody. There's like opportunities galore and it's really important that we both consider like, yes, we don't want to be wasteful, right? We want to be good stewards of money, but we also don't want to be afraid to take a risk like you're talking about. We're like, Let me expand my business, let me grow this. Let me try this new opportunity because that can also limit us, right? So basically, there are many different money personalities and we, you know, I won't go into all the different ways we teach for different ways to budget based on your personality and you kind of find the one that fits you. And they're like coats, right? Like, you can try on each of the coats and see like, Oh gosh, this is to tight in the bust or this like makes my butt look big. I don't like this coat. You've got to find the one that fits, and you kind of customize it for yourself as you go. But essentially what happens is then when you're checking in with your money once a week, we always joke about having a money date. You know, you light a candle, put on some good music, get yourself a sparkling beverage that you might enjoy whatever. And that and you kind of sit down with your money and you make it like a little bit of a practice. You make it a moment and you really treat it like it has the value that you really want to bring to the table and to all. Yeah, yeah. And it's just such a beautiful habit to cultivate because it's something that then you can look forward to, and it doesn't feel like a dread all the time.

Jessica Honegger [00:11:55] OK, because I'm dreading I mean, my husband keeps saying like, he's got his excel sheet ready and he and like, you know, we have, we're 20 years in. So we have a history that probably where those conversations didn't go well and write so well in that case, start over

Erin Skye Kelly [00:12:12] what you guys need to do is have a naked budget meeting or we will send you I'll even send you the Do Not Disturb sign. I'll send you do not disturb sign for your bedroom door so the kids know they'll see it on the door and they won't come anywhere near it. But I'll be like it says like, naked it budget meeting in progress so we don't need to do is you need to like, literally like strip down. Here's the joke about it, right? Is like, it's really hard to fight when you're naked, right? It's really hard to do. Yes. So I mean,

Jessica Honegger [00:12:38] I've never thought about that before, but it's true.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:12:42] It is true and you really get raw and real and vulnerable. So you have the money talk, not from a place of like, here's where we're spending. Here's where we're not spending. Here's what you're allowed to do. Here's what you're not allowed to do. It's not like that at all. It's really like, here are my deepest, darkest fears about retirement or about the way we're spending or about the vacations we're not able to take. Or here's my deepest, darkest fear about your job or your health or your whatever. And here's my biggest dreams about the, you know, the Airstream or the kids are. You're going to be an empty nester in like a few years, right? It's like there's like change is going to happen. And so those conversations, especially if there's been some, you know, some financial strain, which there is in every household that's very normal is then you call a naked budget meeting. And attendance is really good at those because as soon as you say that everybody shows up and you sit together and you really just spend time talking about the emotional implications first and then you get into like the numbers and stuff afterwards.

Jessica Honegger [00:13:38] I like this. OK? OK, so your

Erin Skye Kelly [00:13:41] husband, we're going to be like, I'm open,

Jessica Honegger [00:13:43] I'm open while I'm the one that needs to be open. So I don't know we might do a naked plus massage. Like, why don't you tell me all of the ways you want to cut back while you're giving me a massage? A great idea. That great idea. I can do that. OK, I wanted to ask you about credit cards.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:14:01] I just in general,

Jessica Honegger [00:14:03] you tell, Well, OK, I'm thinking about at what point do you get a credit card? Are you pro credit cards or not credit cards? Like at what point? I'm thinking about my kids, you know? And we actually recently one of my kids, 12 year old, went on a trip to Washington, D.C., with his school. And so we gave him cash and we're trying to do cash with our children as much as possible. So they really understand this is not magic poof money where the bank account just kind of fills up and you just insert a plastic card, you know, so our kids all have gone to go, set up a checking account and you know, my daughter has an ATM card. We're doing different things at different stages, depending on their ages. But I'm thinking like, OK, what does it look like? College young 20s. How do I set my kids up for success with the credit cards that will inevitably they'll be getting in the mail? Hmm. I mean, I still get a credit card sent to me in the mail.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:14:58] Yeah, I can't say that I'm pro or against credit cards because again, it really does depend on the money personality like there are people who can, you know, sip tequila and there's no problem. And there's people like me who if I have a little bit of tequila, we are dancing on those speakers and nobody's going home till we're done at Denny's, at 3:00 in the morning, right? So I just don't drink because I'm like, This is just not good for me, right? [00:15:18]And one time I, you know, I took a credit card detox, which is what I recommend if people are struggling with credit card debt. You know, it's not an all or nothing cut them up with giant scissors or put them in the blender or anything like that. It's really a sort of just a time and a rest of detox and like reintegrating back to who you are without credit. Then at the end of that phase, you can kind of usually tell if you're somebody who can handle credit or not. [23.7s] But I took a credit detox for a while, and then when I got a credit card, I finally thought, OK, I'm going to get a credit card. It's going to come in the mail and I'm going to start using it really responsibly. And it showed up and the CVV number on the back of the card was six, six, six. I have a picture in the book and I was like, OK, God, I'm listening, I'm listening. It's not for me. I got you. I'm listening. So I'm a fan of like the Visa debit and the MasterCard debit and stuff for kids where they can have a card and they have access to the card, but they're managing the amount that's in their account and we give them out what we call a new zero. So $100 equals zero. They can never dip below $100 in the checking account as they're learning. So that way they learn like what it feels like to keep money in the account. And then eventually, when they manage that well, then we make $500 the new zero. So then they can, you know, so we just kind of get them to the place where we want them to really be comfortable understanding that money in the account is not going to burn a hole in your pocket and it's not going to be spent. But to your point about like building the credit in the you know, oh my gosh, it's just it boggles my mind that you could be in college and standing outside of your classroom is this credit card predator that's like here, borrow some money. Even though you do not have a job like that space. Bizarre to me, but I understand why credit cards try and get kids as soon as possible, right? They want that client for life, and they know the earlier they get the kid, the longer they're going to have that person indebted to them, so I understand why the credit card companies do it, but I just think like it really what you're doing is absolutely right and absolutely perfect. It's having those conversations with kids about like the dangers of it, like using it responsibly, what it means and monitoring it while they're still in your care so that they can make any mistakes or learn those lessons while they're young. Because if they learn them while they're out on their own, it's so much harder to fix. And if you can set them up for success now, I think you're in good hands.

Jessica Honegger [00:17:35] Let's talk about renting versus buying. When does someone need to go ahead? And it is that the first thing people should start saving for is a house?

Erin Skye Kelly [00:17:44] Well, here's the challenge. And again, I guess it really depends on the kid. But I, you know, [00:17:49]I look at what happens for most adults is, you know, we grow up, we go to college if we're fortunate and then we buy a place and now we're anchored to this debt in a town or a city that we're kind of stuck in. And then what we have to do is we have to continue to work or find jobs to support the level of debt we have. And instead, what may be the right solution for some children is to really allow yourself the opportunity to go and do whatever, whenever and when you know that this is where you are and this is where you want to be and this is what you want to do, then you can anchor down with some debt because that mortgage debt is, like, really, really high. [35.5s] Now I sell this as somebody who was 15 years old when I bought my first property. So I come at this from the perspective of I did end up buying a property, lived in it for a couple of years, and then I moved to London, England, to work for MTV. And so I rented out my house, which gave me the taste of land lording, which I loved. It ended up being something that I just loved doing. So if there's a way that you could, you know, buy a home early and turn it into an asset, which is a cash flowing rental property or something and have it managed successfully while you go and dream your dreams and travel the world and experience all the things you possibly can to figure out who you are before you really settle down into some heavy, heavy debt. I think that that's maybe a healthy solution.

Jessica Honegger [00:19:04] Yes. I wanted to ask you your story. That was my first question, but of course, I just jumped right into the details.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:19:11] So my story is there's a million stories like mine. I was broke now I'm not. The end.

Jessica Honegger [00:19:17] You don't hear many people who bought their first property at 15. So could you maybe just walk us through that story?

Erin Skye Kelly [00:19:24] I really, really wanted out of the town that I was in. Maybe I was 16. I can't remember now I was. I was like, You were a nice fit. I was like, nothing. And I just really, really wanted out of the small town that I was in, and I had saved up some money, a little bit of money and went looking. And what was so funny is, like, everybody around me thought I was crazy. It really was crazy. I should not have been like I wasn't even old enough to have a mortgage. I had to have my grandfather cosign on the mortgage for me. I was not old enough. What's fun about the whole process is like when you're young, you don't have anything to lose. So I don't think I realized the risk I was taking. And of course, the real estate market, you know, it was in the 90s was way different than it is today. So there were also other factors at play that made that possible, and I ended up buying a bunch of rental properties over time. What I would do differently now, like, you know, with the knowledge that I have now about the way mortgages work and the way money works and all of that stuff is, I really would have like set those properties better up for success because I did a lot of running around and a lot like my friends were out partying and I wasn't a party person anyway. But my friends were out partying and, you know, I had to go to bed early because I had to get up and figure out how to fix the toilet, and there was no YouTube or anything. So I was like, you know, just doing so, it's a great life experience. But I did miss out on a lot of the, you know, filed, and end up being the yeah, I miss out on a lot of that, which again, some people will say is great and you can't have it both ways. It's the way it is. But that all happened, and I and I ended up as I was buying my rental properties, I was working in media that was my background and my college training. And then through that process, like was like, Wait a second, what is this mortgage brokering thing that's going on here? So I started learning that mortgage brokering like is much better than using a bank and a lot of cases, I was getting a better deal on my mortgages, which was important to me. So I became a mortgage broker and owned a mortgage brokerage and all of that kind of stuff. That was my kind of real inside look at how the banking world worked, and that's really where I was like, Oh my goodness, this is very dangerous. So my God, that were yes, yes, like coming and just struggling and refinancing their debt into their homes over and over and over again and hitting the ages of 60 and 70 and no equity in their homes, like because they just refinanced debt over and over and over again. And I thought, we are headed for a giant disaster. And what was interesting to me is that I had just come out of a financial disaster. So I too had racked up $2.1 million in debt and was absolutely terrified. Had no idea how it even happened because I was in an industry where you just borrow, if you have a problem, you just borrow your way out of it.

Jessica Honegger [00:21:59] We have similar stories. My husband and I owned like six houses at once with no doc loans. No. This is also back, you know, in there. Yes. Yeah. Two thousands, but yeah, anyway, similar almost lost a lot.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:22:17] Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, you know, when I really understood that it wasn't just me that was hurting and I kind of started to come out of the shadows and be like, This is not OK. [00:22:26]I heard from so many people in the industry who were also hurting. So this was what was fascinating to me. Mortgage brokers, realtors, financial planners, accountants, lawyers, people who were supposed to be the people we went to for financial advice were hurting financially. And that's because we, instead of actually creating an industry of experts, we created an industry of salespeople who also bought into the idea that the debt was the answer or the solution. [25.9s] That's how I came to be this person who was like, Get the hell out of debt, get out of it right now. Wow. And yeah, started helping those people and then wrote the book.

Jessica Honegger [00:23:02] So how did you get out of debt?

Erin Skye Kelly [00:23:03] Well, it was dollar by dollar. As you know, when you, you know, if you've been through it, there is no magic to it. It's really understanding how money actually works. You know, there's lots of people out there who are like, you know, the winky finger gun salespeople who are like just refinance this and consolidate this and sell this. [00:23:22]But unless you actually understand the compound interest in what we call the total cost of borrowing, something can look like a good deal. It can look like it's low interest. It can look like it's zero percent. But when you understand the hidden fees and what we call the total cost of borrowing, you can see quite quickly how you were never set up for success when you're borrowing. But there's always somebody else who's profiting off of you when you're borrowing. So the best thing you can do is be somebody who creates assets for themselves. Never, ever borrow for a liability, which is, you know, again, like liability would be things that go down in value, things that depreciate consumer goods like, you know, your groceries. We don't want to borrow for groceries and stuff like that. [39.5s] And all of that, I need to say all of that. The exception, all of that is there are people who are struggling who are living in the margins because of the way our society is and how awful it is. And so this is a conversation of privilege. And I just want to acknowledge that because when we're talking about, you know, debt and don't do this and don't do that, that automatically comes with the assumption that you have access to that kind of privilege. And so I don't have a solution for the systemic issues that are happening, except that I hope that more people get out of debt so that we can better have a voice and band together and give to the causes that are actually making a difference in those areas. [00:24:34]But not borrowing for liabilities, peace, not borrowing for groceries, not borrowing for gas and all of that. If you can help, it is going to be the thing that changes your life. [8.1s]

Jessica Honegger [00:24:43] Wow, that's such a good rule of thumb. And what about the school that?

Erin Skye Kelly [00:24:47] Well, I was just going to say, and the opposite is what they tell you to do right there, like get a credit card and just put your gas on it and pay it off every month. That's what they tell you. But that's like, that's the trap there. You know what I mean? That's like the here. Get in the van. I have a piece of candy that's like the advice that they're giving school. That's tricky. This is such a hard one because I am somebody who I've watched a lot of people over the years go to college or university and get an education that just does not pay. And so they get out of it with this huge debt that lingers for 40 years. And most of their actual skills came from on the job training. So, you know, I think it's a different story. If you know you're paying $30000 in student loans and you come out and you get a $90000 your job right away and you don't have any other debt and you can, you know, hammer that debt down as a priority. You know, I think that's maybe a question. But you really have to look at the ROI. Like, what is the return on this? What am I studying and is it going to get me where I want to go? And there's all kinds of arguments people will say we got to go to university or college, not for the degree, but for the experience. And I think that's great. I think that's lovely. But if please choose something that's going to at least be in line with your passions, allow you to make a decent return, or at least have a plan for how the heck you're going to pay it off when you get back because you're making crystal ball decisions, when you're a teenager and a lot of cases and sometimes you get to college and you're like, Oh, this is not what I thought it is. I don't want to be a marine biologist, after all. I want to be, you know, in economics or something else. And so we have to have enough room in the financial plan to be able to make those changes

Jessica Honegger [00:26:21] when your brain isn't even developed

Erin Skye Kelly [00:26:23] in the most. 25. Yeah, I know men for boys, it's 27, isn't it?

Jessica Honegger [00:26:27] Probably. I can definitely see that feeling.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:26:31] Probably I know,

Jessica Honegger [00:26:33] maybe a little longer for mine. We'll see.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:26:36] I think it's just that question of like when your, you know, we're entrusting these teenagers to make their life decisions at such a young age and anything can happen before the end of it and just really going. [00:26:48]It's not a matter of should I or shouldn't I? For student loan debt, it's a matter of how can I? How can I pay this off as quickly as possible? And if you can't, the answer might be to save a little bit of money first or work while you're going to school. [10.2s] Or if you're choosing a profession, you know, if you want to be a medical doctor, there's no way you're just going to take on a hundred grand in debt, and that's just going to be the thing you have to handle later, but it means when you come out of med school, you're not buying the portion on payments, you're not buying the penthouse suite, you're going to do what you can do to get rid of those that medical debt that's you loaned out as soon as possible. And then look at building the other wealth.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:21] Wow. I mean, you're an expert, truly you. You weren't at one point and now you are and all of this. You have a podcast. Tell us about your podcast.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:27:31] Yeah. The podcast is just called Get the Hell Out of Debt. And it's basically, you know, it's nothing like Jessica's podcast, OK, but it's like, it's like a little podcast where we talk about money just for 20 to 30 minutes a week and we really dove into, you know, this season, I'm really diving into people's questions like, what are their actual needs? And so we're talking a little more deeply about things, but we cover everything from, you know, credit cards to how to build wealth and stuff like that in just little bite sized chunks.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:57] I love that. I love that. And that could be a great habit for someone right now who's just even cringes at this topic would just be to go start listening to your podcast. I love bite size. That's why we keep ours short and sweet as well. And then, of course, your book Get the Hell Out of Debt. I'm getting it for all of my kids, but I'm hoping that they don't ever have to go into debt. But maybe it can be a debt prevention read for them.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:28:22] It is. It is. [00:28:23]And there's also so it's divided into three phases, right? The first is the financial foundation. The second is paying off debt if you have it. But if you don't, you just jump right to the third phase, which is how to build wealth. So hopefully your kids can read the first section and then jump right to the third section without having to deal with the debt part in the middle. [14.6s]

Jessica Honegger [00:28:38] Thanks for joining us, Erin.

Erin Skye Kelly [00:28:40] Thank you for having me.

Jessica Honegger [00:28:48] You can learn more from Erin Skye Kelly by tuning in to her podcast and especially getting her book Get the Hell Out of Debt. She is on a mission to free people from consumer debt. And it's not about fancy math or software. There's no consolidation or equity take out or remortgaging. She just doesn't believe in paying debt with debt. We want to wave a magic wand and y'all know our story. I write about it in Imperfect Courage, Joe, and I at one point where at $40000 worth of credit card debt and literally, we're playing chess with our credit cards for a while. Thankfully, we are not in that position anymore, but I've been there and that's why I think these financial conversations are so important. I love the conversation that we had around what kind of habits we need to have around our finances. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's show. Our music is by Ellie Holcomb and I'm Jessica Honegger. Until next time, let's take each other by the hand and keep going scared.