The Habit of Habits with Gretchen Rubin

Jessica Honegger [00:00:03] Hey, there. Welcome back to the Going Scared podcast. I'm Jessica Honegger, founder of the world changing brand Noonday Collection, and I'm so glad to have you here for today's conversation. Our going scared community gathers here every week for direct and honest conversations that help you live a life of courage by leaving comfort and going scared. I am excited to kick off today's brand new series that we are calling Habits for a Highly Hesitant Habit Keepers. They say that of the 41 percent of Americans who make New Year's resolutions, only nine percent are successful in keeping them. We specifically are launching this mid-February because I'm assuming some of you might have started off the year with some high aspirations, and maybe you're having some trouble by now in staying true to those original intentions. Well, guys, I have needed a good reframe with my relationship to habits, especially last year. I found myself fatigued, exhausted by the end of the year, and it was kind of ditching some of those regular good practices that I like. I knew that someone that was going to help me reframe and get reloaded about habits would be Gretchen Rubin. Gretchen Rubin is our guest for today. She has been a guest on The Oprah show. The New York Times has called her the queen of the self-help memoir, and she has even been an answer on the game show Jeopardy. Now that's goals. We are really excited to dive in to today to really talk about what are habits and why should we even care? Why do they even matter? And then over the course of the next few weeks, we are going to be talking about very specific habits that maybe some of us aspire to. Things like meal planning and movement and actually going to the dentist and making our doctor's appointments. We even have a special episode we're planning about our Instagram number and its relationship to habits. And that's what I really love about Gretchen is she really does break down how your personality might interact with habits, and it's just extremely, extremely helpful. I'm excited for you to dive into today's conversation with Gretchen Rubin.

Jessica Honegger [00:02:44] So I did an Instagram poll towards the end of last year towards the end of our last series, which was all about knowing yourself. And I put it out there, what do you guys want to hear from me next about? Do you want to hear entrepreneurial success stories post-pandemic? Do you want to learn about digital health and then I hesitantly put on the poll do you want to learn how to keep habits? And it won!

Gretchen Rubin [00:03:10] I'm not surprised.

Jessica Honegger [00:03:12] It won, but I was sort of annoyed because I was thinking, why do people want to talk about habits? And then because we're in the middle of the self-awareness series, I thought, why am I annoyed by that? Mm-Hmm. And I realized it's because I'm tired. I'm really tired. I am one of those, you know, during this the last two years that has been leading through some really challenging seasons in our business, in our family with teenagers, and I'm fatigued. And I equate most habits with spending energy. Hmm. But then I remembered what you have taught me through all of your books is that once a habit is established, it actually requires less energy.

Gretchen Rubin [00:04:00] Exactly, yes.

Jessica Honegger [00:04:02] So I was like, OK, but it doesn't take energy for me to make my coffee in the morning or buckle my seatbelt or get on my daily 8:40 a.m. call with our leadership team. So I have that, you know, aspiration of, I know when something is in place, it actually creates more energy for me, and that is motivating. But how do you start a new habit when you're tired? So that is what led me to this new podcast series. And the truth is, even though I married the most habitual person I've ever met in my life, except maybe, you know, we are all hesitant around certain habits, even my husband, who is so habitual he's not in the habit of going to doctor visits, and he's not in the habit of keeping up with his eyes in his contacts and is, you know, I don't know when the last time we got new glasses was. So we're going to be covering so many habits in this series where we talk about the habit of meal planning, moving our bodies, paying attention, digital health, decluttering and more. And I think for me, what requires energy and makes me tired is the idea of starting something. That's the issue for me. So I have gotten out of some habits over the last couple of years. I realize, Oh, those habits are good for me and I need to start, but I'm tired, so I wanted to begin there. But before that, actually, I did want to ask you, how do you define a habit?

Gretchen Rubin [00:05:26] [00:05:26]A habit is a practice or behavior that you do without having to think about it. So as you said, part of why they are energizing and freeing is you don't have decision fatigue. You're not wrestling with your self-control. It just you just snap on your seatbelt or you just take your daily medication right before you take your first cup of coffee and you do it just without delay and without a lot of like back and forth in your head, because that's very draining. [29.9s] Lots of times we will go back and forth in our heads and in the end, never get around to doing it. We come up with a loophole to put it off and put it off, and at the end of the day, we're exhausted, and we still haven't done a half an hour of yoga or whatever. But I also think as people use habit and ritual to me, a ritual is a is a habit or practice that has like a deeper significance. So like if you're saying a prayer while you're brushing your teeth, well, then that's a ritual. But if you're just brushing your teeth and thinking about what's on your to do list for the next day, I would just call that a habit. So I think rituals are more elevated and sometimes habits can be strengthened by becoming rituals, but they don't have to become rituals in order to be strong.

Jessica Honegger [00:06:39] I really like that distinction. I think that matters. I think that you could have ideas of, OK, what do I want to become habitual and then what do I want to be ritual?

Gretchen Rubin [00:06:51] Like give it like saying things before you have a meal or like I have like a granite. I say like, thanks every time I come and go for my apartment building of these funny doors that I have to get through. And so it's a good reminder to be like, I'm so happy to be coming home or I'm so happy to be going out. So that's a ritual. But just putting my keys back at the same place every day, that would just be a habit.

Jessica Honegger [00:07:12] OK, so you've researched and discovered four tendencies that we each fall into, and I know I have taken that quiz on your website. How many people have taken that at this point?

Gretchen Rubin [00:07:22] More than three and a half million people. Oh my goodness. Yes, it's free. It's quick. Go to GretchenRubin.com/fourtendencies and find out your tendency.

Jessica Honegger [00:07:31] Wow, that is a lot of data that is so much data. OK, I want you to describe those tendencies and then I want you, first of all, to tell me what you've learned from the data, because that's crazy. And then I want to know how each of those tendencies interacts with habits.

Gretchen Rubin [00:07:47] Yes. So the four tendencies is a framework that at the personality framework that I figured out because when I was studying habits to write my book Better Than Before, which is all about the 21 strategies of habit change, I began noticing a pattern about how certain people did or didn't find success in forming habits, and I was very puzzled by this and intrigued and trying to figure out what was going on. And the most important moment was when a friend of mine said, Because my sister, my sister Alyssa, says I can be kind of a happiness bully because if I think there's a way for you to be happier, I can kind of get, like all intense. And so I was asking this friend about how you know what she was doing to be happier. And she said something that just hit me like a lightning bolt. She said The funny thing about me is I know I'm happier when I exercise and when I was in high school on the track team, I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now on my own? And I thought, Well, why it's the same person, it's the same behavior. At one time, it was effortless. Now she's struggling. How do you explain that now I can generate like 10 theories in my head? But what's really the issue? And then I noticed other patterns, like whenever I would talk to people about New Year's resolutions. That's kind of a good way to start people talking about their aims and their resolutions and their habits. A certain group of people would say exactly the same thing to me. They would say I would not keep a New Year's resolution on January 1st because January 1st is an arbitrary date. I would keep a resolution whenever it made sense to me, and I thought, Well, that's very striking because the arbitrariness of January 1st never bothered me. But to these people, they all use that word arbitrary. And for them, it's very off putting. So what's going on? [00:09:26]So huge amount of like intellectual like just sweat pouring down my face for months and months. And finally, I realized that the key was the idea of expectations. It's how we either meet expectations or resist expectations. So this is how we, you know, if you're an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel, those are the four tendencies. [21.5s] So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important.

Jessica Honegger [00:10:02] And so they're accurate. That's what you are.

Gretchen Rubin [00:10:04] That's what I am. Yes. And so our motto, the upholder motto is discipline is my freedom. I believe that with all my heart and

Jessica Honegger [00:10:13] my husband, you and

Gretchen Rubin [00:10:14] I, when you were describing my last

Jessica Honegger [00:10:16] good Midwestern folk.

Gretchen Rubin [00:10:18] Yeah, well, it's not really related to where you were at what part of the country you're from, but. So then then there are questioners questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. They resist anything arbitrary, like January 1st, anything inefficient, unjustified. So they're essentially making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their inner standard, they'll do it. No problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. They tend to like things very personalized, they need a lot of justification.

Jessica Honegger [00:10:54] And this is tell me that's

Gretchen Rubin [00:10:55] totally me, is that that's what my husband is, is consider then exhausting, obligers. You know, we can talk about analysis paralysis if you want. So then there are obligers, and this is the biggest tendency for both men and women. You either are in a obliger or you have many obligers in your life. Blazers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet in our expectations. To meet an inner expectation, they must have a form of outer accountability. If you want to read more, join a book group. If you want to exercise, you need outer accountability. So this explains my friend on the track team when she had a team and a coach expecting her to show up. She showed up no problem. But when she was trying to go on her own, it was a struggle so she could have signed up for a class. She could have worked out with the trainer, she could have worked out with a friend who would have been disappointed if she didn't show up. There's a lot of ways to create outdoor accountability. Once you realize that, that is the crucial thing. So the obligers motto is you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels, this is the smallest group. It's a conspicuous group, but it's a small group, and rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do, like they don't decide, Oh, I'm going to give up bread, because then they're like, No one tells me what to do, not even me. They don't sign up for a 10 a.m. spin class on Saturdays because they think, I don't know what I'm going to feel like doing on Saturday. And just the idea that someone's expecting me to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me, and neither can I. So you think you're a questioner? I do. Oh yeah. Well, that's the second largest. Obliger's the largest.

Jessica Honegger [00:12:49] Arbitrary all the time. Yeah. So tell me

Gretchen Rubin [00:12:51] about tell us it's still tough questioner Yeah.

Jessica Honegger [00:12:55] So tell me about the data. Three and a half million people later.

Gretchen Rubin [00:12:59] OK, but questioners will say to me, Hey, Gretchen, what about selection bias? And I would say, Hey, questioners, I hear you on selection bias. So I paid for a national survey that did that. Like had, you know, the, you know, looked at enough people distributed among demographic groups, et cetera, to give me like the actual breakdown will break down. Yeah, yeah. Because you can say, Well, but Gretchen, all you know, you tend to have a lot of upholders in your group because you're an upholder, whatever. So you really had to pay to have a scientifically authoritative survey done. So that's where I get the numbers that obliger. But I think, you know, you see it in the world around us. I mean, we see that there are a lot of obligers, we hear from a lot of obligers, and we like I knew this was one of the things that puzzled me when I wrote the happiness project. A lot of people would say to me, But how did you get yourself to do all those things? And I said, Well, I just I thought they would make me happier. So I decided to try them, and if they made me happy, I just kept it up and they would look at me very puzzled and they'd say, Yeah, but how did you get yourself to do it? It's like, I don't really understand what you're asking. So I began to understand that there was something about me that was different from a lot of other people, and that was part of also what got me interested in habit formation.

Jessica Honegger [00:14:13] I'm a questioner, but I also have to force myself like once I actually believe in something I'm not like you and that I can just do it. I do have to put in and I. We had a guest on the show once his name is Benjamin Hardy, and he wrote a book called Willpower Doesn't Work and it's all about creating environments for your success. So I have to do group work out. So even though I believe in exercise, I'm not questioning that it does make me feel better like that said and done. Left to my own devices if I was just like, Well, I'm just going to go run on my own, I won't do it, so I do have to have that outward commitment.

Gretchen Rubin [00:14:48] Is that true generally?

Jessica Honegger [00:14:50] Yeah, it kind of is.

Gretchen Rubin [00:14:52] Then I think you're an obliger. Because you remember this has nothing to do with how curious you are, how analytical you are, how adventurous you are, how extroverted you are. It has nothing to do with anything, except if somebody asks or tells you to do something. How do you respond? I question if you say I need outer accountability in order to meet an inner expectation that is the definition of an obliger, no matter how, like full of questions and loving of information, you might be.

Jessica Honegger [00:15:18] Yeah, I don't know how to think about that, how to think about that. So in relationship to starting a habit, because I think that's where I got tired. I was just and I realized later that I had the same feeling.

Gretchen Rubin [00:15:33] Tired is the sign of obligers. If you feel like I need more time for self-care, I'm not good at drawing boundaries. Why do I keep my promises to other people? But I struggle to keep my promises to myself?

Jessica Honegger [00:15:44] I don't. I don't. All of those things are not true about me.

Gretchen Rubin [00:15:47] OK, interesting. I won't have to dig a little deeper on you.

Jessica Honegger [00:15:52] No, I'm no. I think I'm tired because I've just been leading in a very challenging and challenging business environment.

Gretchen Rubin [00:16:00] Well, then maybe it's a question of you're sort of like, You know what? I know I should do these things. But deep down, I haven't really. I don't really think that's my I don't really think that that's my priority right now. I feel like I need to preserve my energy. And so that's kind of paying lip service to this thing. But I haven't really decided because for when questioners get like stuck or paralyzed? It's usually because, deep down, they haven't truly accepted that something's the right way or the best way. That's customized to them.

Jessica Honegger [00:16:29] That's one hundred percent. I mean, yes, it is like, I have to like experience it in my soul.

Gretchen Rubin [00:16:37] Yeah, that's very questioner.

Jessica Honegger [00:16:39] And then I go for it. But I set myself up for success because I want to stay with things. I don't just want to start things, you know, not just a starter. So I am curious that if you do feel overwhelmed, I mean, I think you kind of just answered it. I want to know for because each person has a different relationship with starting a habit. So what is the first step that each of those people can take for actually beginning?

Gretchen Rubin [00:17:06] [00:17:06]So if it's an obliger, it's very clear, and in a way it like for an obliger it's the most straightforward. It's like going to outer accountability, and there are so many ways to create outer accountability. And I think this is because there are so many a obligers in the world they know they need it. [14.2s] And so whether that's like texting a friend every time you do something or thinking about your duty to be a role model for someone else or thinking about your duty to your future self, that works for some obligers. I will say that for some, like they're very different in what kinds of accountability work for them. So like, some obligers are very feel very accountable if they spend money, like if they if they pay for class, they're going to go. Other obligers, it's almost like that makes them feel like they're off the hook. I talked to one adviser, she's like, Yeah, I signed up for a trainer because I knew I needed out accountability. But then it occurred to me that if I skipped the session, he still gets paid and he gets the time back. And I was like, OK, let me jump in and say, That's not working, so you want it. You may need to do some experimentation. For some people, like an app, a notification for an app would be enough or like checking off a don't break the chain might be enough accountability, and for others, it needs to be an actual person, so you may need to experiment. But there's many ways to create better accountability, and that's what obligers need. Not motivation, not clarity, not self-care, not putting themselves first. They need outer accountability, and then they follow through. [00:18:29]Questioners need reasons. If they're going to follow the advice of an expert, they have to believe that that expert truly knows what they're talking about. They have to believe that whatever they're facing is the best way in the right way for them. And this can be tricky because of analysis paralysis. The questioners, sometimes their desire for perfect information, can make it hard for them to make a decision or move forward. [22.8s] So like, let's say you want to eat more healthfully in your questionnaire. Well, there's so much information, a lot of it conflicting about how to eat more healthfully so they can kind of like stall out because they haven't figured out truly in their heart what is the best way. But once they decide that, then they can. Usually they just can bite in and start and go. So for questionnaires, it's really about having that knowledge and having that, that certainty, that clarity, the clarity is what is most questioners.

Jessica Honegger [00:19:24] I feel like we might come off as a little bit stubborn. The questioner?

Gretchen Rubin [00:19:27] Oh yeah.

Jessica Honegger [00:19:28] Oh yeah. And maybe a bit cynical.

Gretchen Rubin [00:19:31] Well, questioner will consider children often have the problem of seeming disrespectful because teachers are like, Why are you questioning me? You know, like, it's kind of like, I'm the teacher. You do what I say into a questioner, even like a questioner, eight-year-old. They're like, Well, that doesn't make any sense, right? I'm not going to do it. I'm going to write this book report. You know, I read the book, Why do I? This is like, why do I have to do this dumb assignment? So, yeah, so questioners can often have to learn to ask questions in a way that don't make other people feel defensive or like their authority is being undermined. That's a that's a very common issue for questioners. Adults and children alike, then for rebels, [00:20:07]rebels, it's interesting they can do anything they want to do. So for a rebel, a lot of the advice that you give to other tenancies doesn't work for them and can actually be counterproductive. [8.3s] So something like sign up for a class and go every week that's not going to work for a rebel, right? Because they tend to really love. Now, I would never say never, because rebels come in all shapes and sizes, and sometimes they love a challenge like I'm not going to drink for a year, watch me. That kind of thing. And then then they're unstoppable. They tend not to like feeling trapped in a schedule so they might do something better. Like, I'm going to join a big gym that has got tons of options, and today I'm doing yoga, and tomorrow I'm doing cardio and I'm doing whatever I want or and for them also thinking about their identity. It's the kind of person that I am. It's that my values in the world, I'm exercising not because my doctor told me, do not, even because I said I would. I'm exercising because I'm an athlete. I'm somebody who respects my body. I love the feeling of being outside. Maybe I'm going to go for a run during my lunch hour when I'm supposed to be working because no one is the boss of me. Getting tied to you know, I love I love healthy, fresh food. I love experimenting with new recipes. I like going to Farmer's Market. I eat this healthy way because this is what I like. This is what I choose. This is the kind of person that I am. No this is what you're supposed to do. This is what you said you do. This is what everybody expects you to do. Those kinds of messages can be very counterproductive actually for rebels and then for upolders. [00:21:38]Basically, upholders are pretty good at this. Like this is one of our superpowers as upholders. As farming habits, we tend to like farm them easily and kind of get a kick out of them. And what's funny is the upholder is a very small tendency. I would say that we are very disproportionately represented in the ranks of people who want to suggest to others, how about how to form their habit. [21.5s] And sometimes I say to my, you know, my, my, my, my, my, my colleagues in have information like, Hey, but you're an upholder and anything works for you. All tools work for you because upholders like this is the way we're wired, right? It's not that you have some like magic system. It's like any system would work.

Jessica Honegger [00:22:18] Totally. Yeah. It blows my mind. It just being married to one. It just honestly blows my mind and I get so bored. I get so bored with certain habits. And he just doesn't.

Gretchen Rubin [00:22:35] They're energizing. They're energizing. Yeah.

Jessica Honegger [00:22:38] I wanted to ask you as a person and the what did you just call it? The habit space.

Gretchen Rubin [00:22:46] Habit formation yeah habit formation.

Jessica Honegger [00:22:48] Because, yeah, I was surprised to hear that I think atomic habits, which came out a while ago, was one of the top selling books last year. I was just surprised me. I don't know. I think it's because I'm a questioner and so I'm like, Aren't you guys just I'm just feeling rebellious about habits right now. So when I think about collectively new habits that we might have established over the last two years that actually need to be broken. What would you say to that?

Gretchen Rubin [00:23:15] Absolutely. [00:23:16]And it's interesting because this period has hit people differently because and often for good and for ill in the same person, because habits were very disruptive, existing habits. And for some people, that was positive, like, I'm cooking all these healthy meals because I don't have a commute. And then for some people, it was very negative. Like, I stopped going to the gym because I always, like dropped off my kid at the at school. And then I went to the gym and then I went to work. And now that I'm not doing that, I haven't been going to the gym. And so there have been for a lot of people, habits that had to be reshaped. [29.9s] And one thing that I haven't seen people talking about, but that I think is going to be a big issue is that from childhood, all of us were trained five on two off the weekdays the weekend. And a lot of people have habits that are like weekday habits and then are weekend habits. And I think it's going to be harder for people to form habits when it's like, sometimes I go in on Monday and sometimes I work from home, sometimes I go in at 11 and sometimes I go in at nine a.m. and it's like, OK, that because habits, you said this earlier habits form more easily when they're repeated in a very predictable, consistent way and the more predictable and consistent, kind of the more effortless and thoughtless in a good way they become. [00:24:27]And I think this is going to mean that people are going to have to be much more intentional with their habits, and that's can be hard when you want to just like stick something into automatic pilot and walk away, it might be harder now if there's less regularity in our schedules. [12.8s]

Jessica Honegger [00:24:41] That's true. And I do think the regularity irregularity is here to stay. Yeah. What other sort of habits like collectively like I'm even thinking about, I feel I've I've coined this term that people have gotten to the habit of hermiting, that even though they could go out and actually, you know, connect with people in a safe way, they've just kind of gotten so used to just being at home and not actually going out and connecting with people.

Gretchen Rubin [00:25:09] I kind of think it's too soon to see for that. I think there's still I think there's enough ambiguity about that that I wonder what we're going to see when the clouds truly lift. OK.

Jessica Honegger [00:25:21] You think we're going to swing back into just craving togetherness?

Gretchen Rubin [00:25:25] I don't know. I don't know, but I don't think. I don't think we can go by now because I think that I at least to my mind, it doesn't feel like it's truly behind us. No doubt. You're going to come over right? Let's all get together. Like, Come on, come into my house. Well, you're

Jessica Honegger [00:25:44] in New York, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin [00:25:47] People are people are cautious, you know, they don't want to get ahead of themselves. And there's a lot of uncertainty and it kind of like there's sort of waves of uncertainty. So now I think people are sort of like, I don't want to make a lot of plans. You know, I'm kind of kind of so, but I agree that we're going to have to get back into it. I just I just feel like we don't exactly yet know what that's going to look like.

Jessica Honegger [00:26:10] And maybe that brings me to this series because I feel like we're still a little bit. I call it like no man's land, like we're on an inner long international flight.

Gretchen Rubin [00:26:20] Yeah. You know, when you're on a long international flight time, we don't know when we're supposed to land.

Jessica Honegger [00:26:24] You don't know when it's going to land, you're don't know what time it is. You're like the lights are on. But the but it's dark outside.

Gretchen Rubin [00:26:31] Yeah, I think that I think people, if you have given people a deadline, whatever that deadline was and how preposterous that might have seemed at the beginning, if you're like by this date, these things will be true. People can pace themselves. I think it's the uncertainty. I think it's being in that flight and not knowing when's this thing like, do I have time to start a movie, right? Can I watch the entire Game of Thrones like right now? Because I'll do that if you tell me I'm going to be up here for 90 hours, you know I can might make up my mind. I think it's I think it's the deadline. And then I think it's sort of like making up your mind that it's a deadline and then somebody is like, you switcheroo. Yeah, it's kind of not really a deadline or. You know, it's it's hard, I

Jessica Honegger [00:27:18] think, navigating everybody else's kind of. But that's what's been really hard for me.

Gretchen Rubin [00:27:24] Yes.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:25] Hmm. Navigating other people's boundaries and expectations and wanting to honor them. But then? Uh-Huh.

Gretchen Rubin [00:27:34] But you know, one thing, because you're so drained and and like kind of loathe to start a new habit because it feels so demanding. Maybe you need to give yourself some habits that are about fun or whimsy or rest. So I have a podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin, and for the last three years, we've done like a challenge for ourselves and for listeners. So in 2020 it was walk for 20 minutes a day in 2020. So we challenged people like walk twenty in twenty. OK, that turned out to be a really good challenge for me, not for the whole year. We didn't know that, but a lot of people were like, Oh, this really saved me. Then for 2021, we were like, Look, 2020 was not a great year and 2021, we're going to have a delightful challenge. And so the challenge was to read twenty one. It's like, read anything you want listening counts like read 21 and people loved it, right? Because people wanted to be reminded to read. And then we come to 2022 and we're like, OK, well, '21 didn't exactly go the way we thought it would go. What do people need in 2022? And we picked rest. [00:28:37]So the challenge for 2022 is to rest 22 in '22, whether that's going to bed twenty two minutes earlier or napping, I started with the habit of napping, which I can get. I love that even like a twenty two minute nap for me is the perfect length. Or just like my sister lies, she's a TV show runner, so she's crazy. But you know, she's just super busy and she lies in bed and listens to an audiobook. And for her, that's very, very restful. Or, you know, you can sit outside and watch your dog play in the backyard while you drink a cup of coffee in the morning that I think just sort of reminding people you need a habit of rest, just like you need a habit of exercising or meditating or learning Spanish or whatever it is that you have put on your list, like make time for fun, make a habit of things that you enjoy and look forward to. And also maybe if what you really need is more rest and true rest. [53.5s]

Jessica Honegger [00:29:31] You know, I think people are like, Oh, well, I'm just sitting on my scalp, my couch scrolling, my Instagram.

Gretchen Rubin [00:29:37] Is that rest of that rest? I don't think that's right. No, I don't, either. Elizabeth and I talked about that because we were like, Can walking be rest? And we were like, OK, that's is going to have to like, come up with their own definition because

Jessica Honegger [00:29:53] walking, they notice putting your path in oncoming beauty, like walking your neighborhood to notice. I think rest comes from awareness, from being present and from noticing the beauty that surrounds us. So I think going on a walk to like exercising and getting your steps in, that sounds awful. That's not restful, but you're probably one of those that like could only walk if it's getting this steps.

Gretchen Rubin [00:30:20] You know, I'm a huge fan of just meandering. OK, good, OK. Like, one of the things I do is I go to the Metropolitan Museum every day. I live very near the Met and I go over to and I do that. I just I don't have an agenda. I just walk around and just look at stuff

Jessica Honegger [00:30:31] that is so good.

Gretchen Rubin [00:30:33] Yeah, and it is. It's it is restful. So I think for some people, that can be rest. I think for some people, but like I would say, it is not restful to scroll or even to watch TV. I don't I

Jessica Honegger [00:30:45] agree with you like

Gretchen Rubin [00:30:46] that's restful, even though you're not in motion. And yet, I think listening to an audiobook does seem like. So I think it's I think like there's no there's no right answer. There's no right way to do this. I think whatever is restful for you. Like, I could imagine someone like flipping through art books like somebody who's very visually oriented. But then for someone else, they're like, Oh, I'm a graphic designer. If I'm looking at my mind is constantly like noticing and planning and making notes and being like, Oh, look what they did with that angle. And it's like, That's not restful. It's fun. It's it might be fascinating. It might be pleasurable. But is it restful? Maybe not like so for each of us I think we would have to think about what you said. True rest. Like, even just that phrase sounds so enticing, so refreshing.

Jessica Honegger [00:31:32] It is enticing. Although as a questioner don't sit around and ask yourself all year what rest is for you.

Gretchen Rubin [00:31:38] Right, right. Good point. How about up with it? Well, this is one thing that questioners can remind themselves is a really good point is that [00:31:46]questioners can if they're feeling that analysis paralysis, they can say, look better to get it going than to get a perfect I can start. And if something doesn't work for me, I've learned I've I can pivot. I can consider this an experiment. If this works, then I've learned something, but I can succeed by failing. [15.8s] If I find that, you know, walking around my neighborhood, I don't find restful. Maybe I need to experiment with an app that is fine. You're still doing your twenty two and twenty two you founded something that worked for somebody else doesn't work that well for you. That. Is success, because that's knowing yourself as as you have said, you know, knowing yourself is a really important value and sometimes you just have to experiment on your experiment on yourself and try something because it's not like there's a magic answer. There's no magic, one size fits all solution. No one can tell you, and maybe you can't even figure it out for yourself until you give it a shot. And so, you know, try something, test it out. Maybe have like a like a one sentence journal. I'm a big like. I created this one sentence journal notebook and you could just like, write it down. What have you learned about yourself? This was really refreshing. This wasn't that refreshing. I wonder, with some people with rest, are they going to ruminate with that time? Like, are they going to have to think about, Oh, my mind goes to a bad place, how am I going to rest in a way? Like, can I schedule time to worry so that I'm not using this time? Because am I? Am I just like working myself up? Right? You know, that could be an issue for somebody. I'm just wondering about that. We'll see. Yeah. So I think sometimes questioners have to just consider everything you know, they tend to like to like, hack themselves, right? You know, and test things out, get data on themselves, personalize.

Jessica Honegger [00:33:23] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Gosh, I love that you're doing this. You know, it's interesting because in some ways we've slowed down the last two years. Like, there's this perception that we've slowed down, but then in other ways, we've sped up. And I do know that we have spent way too much time on technology. And I know for me, I used to have the habit of leaving my computer and my phone in my car when I would get home from the office.

Gretchen Rubin [00:33:49] Oh wow, that's bold.

Jessica Honegger [00:33:52] It was bold. I had little children at the time, and so I think I was able as a questioner to really identify that like, well, I don't want my kids to see me just home and scrolling. Now I have teenagers and one of them has a phone, you know, so now they're a little bit more. I have not been committed to that anymore, like it well also, I don't go into the office that often anymore.

Gretchen Rubin [00:34:16] I mean, you're right, it's just it's you don't have it doesn't work. It doesn't achieve its purpose and it's kind of washed away. It's just washed away. It doesn't even really make it doesn't. It doesn't mean I would have to go walk

Jessica Honegger [00:34:27] out to my car to make it inaccessible to me. So, yeah, but I do. I do think there's some, but I am reframed now. Thank you. I am reframed. I am now happy officially that we are doing this podcast series.

Gretchen Rubin [00:34:40] Oh, good. Yeah, yeah. Like, think of like a habit that would be refreshing and think about, you know, all the ways that I could cement that into my life. So another thing that we do on happier is to do like a twenty two for twenty two list where you think of twenty two things you want to do in twenty two and some people do only fun things like twenty two hikes I want to go on or like twenty two places in my hometown that I want to visit or like. I'm going to do a thing where I'm going to delegate twenty two things because I'm really bad at delegating. I love that, right? And so they can be things like get a will, which my sister has put on her list her yearly list for several years now. She's finally doing it, but you know, that's big and arduous and hard but important. And then you could have things like her favorite show is Mad Men, and I had never seen it, and she kept saying to me, You've got to watch, you gotta watch it. But for a lot of TV to watch, like sit down and watch that. But if I knew I would love it. And of course I did once it started. And so that was a fun thing to put on the list.

Jessica Honegger [00:35:41] That is fun. This is this has got me energized. I did not expect this always got me energized. Good.

Gretchen Rubin [00:35:47] Yay. No. See us an upholder. Of course. I think habits are like, so fun. I love it. And there's a questioner you're like, why would I form a habit? Why would why does that make sense?

Jessica Honegger [00:35:58] Oh yeah, literally. One of my questions that we don't have the answers like, why does any of this matter? Like, That's on me?

Gretchen Rubin [00:36:04] Well, I'll tell you that matter. Look, I mean, habits. Research shows that habits are about 40 percent of everyday life is governed by habit. So we have habits that work for us. We're just a lot more likely to be happier, healthier, more productive and more creative. And if we have habits that don't work for us. It's going to be harder. But 40 percent is a lot of your day.

Jessica Honegger [00:36:22] You just told me again, Gretchen, good. There you go. And so glad you're kicking this off. If you needed a little bit of re-envisioning re motivation, then this conversation was absolutely perfect for me. I happened to interview her on a day when I was feeling a little bit cynical and like, I just don't have it. I mean, just start some things, and I left this conversation ready to take on the world. So I hope it did that for you as well. We want to kick this series off with some giveaways because we would love for you to share this series. It's going to be chock full of so much practical, helpful information and just conversations with people that you are going to want to hear from. So to kick it off, I am giving away some of my favorite pieces from our new Noonday collection some layering pieces for your not even an ear party, some armed party pieces. All you got to do is share the episode, so give it a screenshot and share it either on Instagram or if you hang out on Facebook. Share a link at the episode. Tag Jessica Honegger and we will pick a few winners because we want to kick this off with a big, big boom. Thanks so much for coming back. I know it was a long wait, but I'm telling you this series is absolutely worth the wait. Music from today's show is by Ellie Holcolmb and I'm Jessica Honegger. Until next time, let's take each other by the hand and keep going scared.