Jessica: Hey, everyone! Welcome back to the Going Scared podcast. This is your host Jessica Honegger, founder of the social impact fashion brand Noonday Collection. Join me here every week for conversations on living lives of purpose by leaving comfort and going scared.
Especially coming after a year of deep suffering — whether the pandemic ended up having a lot of silver linings for a lot of us, it also had a lot of suffering. And in addition to the pandemic, I just found that a lot of friends and a lot of us just went through extra suffering stuff that happened in the last 15 months.
And this book is just so honest. It holds back nothing — just really honest questions about “is God good?” and “how can I still believe in God in the midst of suffering?” And it was just beautifully written, and I walked away just feeling sturdy and I felt held. I felt really held reading the words to this book.
Come to find out, the author, Tish Harrison Warren, just moved back to Austin! We have a couple of mutual friends. I’m telling you; the world is small. So, it was super cool to get her on the podcast. It’s our first conversation together, but it’s going to be the first of many because we’re going to start hanging out, and I’m excited!
Tish is a priest in the Anglican Church of North America, and she authored another book called, “Liturgy of the Ordinary,” which I’ve heard is really, really good. And it’s all about practices, so it’s fits right in with this series.
So, anyway, I want to check that out and read that.
She is a founding member of The Pelican Project, a Senior Fellow with the Trinity Forum, and she writes for places like Christianity
Today, The New York Times, Point Magazine, and elsewhere.
This is our last conversation in the series, “Decide, Don’t Slide.” And I just thought, “What a beautiful way to end the series. Someone who helps us hold the tensions of suffering and joy as we reemerge from this pandemic.”
Here’s our conversation.
Tish Harrison Warren: Faith in the Midst of Suffering
Jessica: I do have an Anglican priest on the podcast with me. So, what do I wanna talk about? I do wanna talk about prayer, which, you know, how do you describe what the book is about? I mean, I had never even heard the term theodicy. Did I say that right, theodicy?
Tish: You did. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. So, theodicy, which is basically making sense of God and suffering. And to me, that was my biggest takeaway from your book, but so much of it is about prayer. And I recently heard about a year-and-a-half ago, Rolheiser, he’s a Catholic theologian. He described prayer as relaxing into the goodness of God. And that completely transformed my prayer life. And I’ve spent, like, the last… You know, during the pandemic, a lot of my prayer life has been silence and solitude. And it’s very much in my bones now, deeply committed, imaginative prayer. All my listeners know my sanctuary is my new Cadillac that my dad got me.
Well, during the pandemic, he gave me his old Cadillac. So, my Cadillac is my sanctuary truly. And I go park under a tree after I drop the kids off, and I have silent solitude, relaxing into God’s presence. And it’s been transformative. And it feels very accessible to me now, you know, this awareness of God with me, nighttime. Yeah, I just wanna just… I don’t do anything at night. I don’t even brush my teeth at night, which is gross but I’ve told everyone that already. I wrote that in my first book. I’m like, "This is how bad it is." I just like that feeling of just being tired and just sort of like going to bed. So, that is what led me to get your book because I was like, "I do want a Compline routine. I want something that gets me to sleep at night." So, first of all, what are some of your prayer practices?
Tish: So, I should say, I just wanna start by saying, I really write often out of where I’m struggling and out of my weakness. And I say this to say, if people read my first book, "Liturgy of the Ordinary ," which is really about rhythms and liturgies in our everyday life. And in this book, they could get the impression that if they came to my house, it would be this well-ordered monastic-like sanctuary with children that are like, "Oh, mother, can we start noonday prayer now?" And then I pray every night and have… Yeah, and I don’t… And then I brush my teeth every night. But it’s not true. It’s not like I have nailed the spiritual. If I have friends that are listening, they would laugh because we don’t have anything that looks like a monastic quiet in our home. We have three kids, we’re messy. My husband is half Puerto Rican, half Irish. I’m Texan. We’re just very loud and very, like, emotional demonstrative people. So, we love each other a lot. But it’s not… Here’s what I’m saying. So I’m going to talk about my prayer life now. But I want people to know…
Jessica: You needed to qualify it.
Tish: This is like, when I say I do this practice, that may be on a good, good week, like, five out of seven days, right? Like, I don’t do anything with beautiful consistency. I say that because I’ve realized, as I’ve talked about this, there’s a burden of if I say, you know, "This is something I do," they think, "Oh my gosh, I can’t do that every day." And I wanna be like, "I know. I have three kids. I don’t brush my teeth every day." Like, I don’t do any of this every day. So, these are just practices I have. And so, I’m taking a sense of burden off people because I think Jesus is more aware of our limitations than we are, and He was merciful even to the disciples who fell asleep while He was physically with them on the night before He died. So, He understands our weakness. But yeah, so in terms of practice, you just want me to describe my current kind of prayer practices? Is that what you…
“I’m taking a sense of burden off people because I think Jesus is more aware of our limitations than we are. He understands our weakness.” Tish Harrison Warren
Jessica: Oh, sure. I just thought we’d start there.
Tish: Okay. So, I try to have a time every day where I read some Psalms. Praying the Psalms has become really important to me. The Psalms, the first prayer book of the church. And so, of course, I read the Psalms, but I think I don’t conceive of it as reading the Psalms. I conceive of it as praying the Psalms. Sometimes I do it silently, sometimes I do it out loud. I think that helps me to pray them. And solitude in silence has also become extremely important to me, as you said. And interestingly enough, through the pandemic, it became a lot more important to me. So, since you mentioned that, I wonder if there’s something about the pandemic itself that kind of drew folks more deeply into solitude and silent prayer. I think the face of such an overwhelming catastrophe and amount of suffering, there’s just too many words and questions even. And so, the practice of silence has been really important.
I do pray Compline sometimes at night. It’s funny because during this book, I prayed it. I mean, I prayed it for about five years, fairly consistently, and then all through the book. And then after I wrote the book. But I spent so much time on it in the book, that honestly afterwards I needed a little… It was like I needed a break just that it was so easy for it to pray it and then think, oh, you know, this reminds me of something I need to put in chapter 7, right? Because I was walking through it, but I really return to it. But oftentimes, to your point, like, for instance, this last week, when I had a child who was sick and had a fever, I was so exhausted at night, but also have that anxious parenting sense you have when you’re worried about your kid and it’s dark and you’re lonely and tired.
And so, I would pray portions of Compline because I just was too tired to do the whole thing but needed to hold on to prayers in it. In other words, I needed specific prayers to kind of carry me. So, I mean, there are other, of course, practices in my life. Like, Sabbath-keeping has always been an extremely important and grounding part of my life. But I would say right now, I’m reading… I mean, the kindness, I guess the bread and butter, the ones that I keep coming back to are the reading of the Psalms, silence and prayer, silence and extemporaneous prayer, and then journaling and Compline. Most Anglican priests do morning prayer and evening prayer. And there’s been seasons of my life when I do that really consistently. This summer has not been one of those seasons at all, because…
Jessica: You just moved in.
Tish: Well, and the rhythm is, typically these days, I’m woken up by my children. So, it just makes for… Here’s an advice to all of us. But something I have found is that I have more… I take shorter times of silence and prayer more often than longer times, less often. So, the other thing that’s really sustained me is I do take days of prayer where I go to a retreat center, and I have a whole silent day. And I’ve done that at different… Sometimes I’ve done it once a quarter. During the pandemic, I really consistently did it about once a month because it was my lifeline. I mean, I felt I was trapped in a home with three children and a husband. And so, it was really… There was very little time that was just mine. And so that was really a lifeline. And since we moved to Texas, I haven’t done that. But I have my first day scheduled next week. So that’s very exciting.
Jessica: Gosh, even just having that on the books helps you to fight…
Tish: Oh my God.
Jessica: …some of that stress, you know?
Tish: It’s so true. It’s so true. It feels like when… My husband and I don’t have this anymore. But when our kids were younger, we would sometimes have, like, an anniversary trip or something planned. And I would think about it for months. It just felt like you could endure so much to think, “ Okay, I’m gonna get time with him. I’m gonna get uninterrupted time.” And it feels like that right now with me and God. It’s like, "Okay, next Tuesday, I’m going to have all day to be with you."
Jessica: It’s so good. I love that. And let’s just name the fact that I called Compline, “Compline” for the first half of this podcast.
Tish: Oh, people do. That’s okay. It’s…
Jessica: Compline. Compline.
Tish: No, no, plenty of people call it Compline. I think it’s an alternative pronunciation.
Jessica: Compline or Compline. That’s very appropriate. Okay.
Tish: It might be that I’m… I think Compline is the way British people… But I actually don’t…
Jessica: Well, now that you’re in Texas, you might have to start…
Tish: It’s typically said…
Tish: It’s typically said Compline, but a lot of people say Compline. So you’re not alone.
Finding and Following the Light
Jessica: Okay, good to know. Good to know. Okay. So, let’s talk about prayer and suffering, because so much of your book is about you grappling with suffering. And is God still good? And how do you think that suffering has informed your experience of prayer? And specifically, I loved your lantern analogy and just that picture that it paints for prayers. I don’t know if you’d wanna tell us that beautiful word picture that you created in your book about the lantern and the light?
Tish: I don’t know if this is when we were talking before the recording or now, but saying sort of what is this book about? And that’s a great question. Theodicy, which I went to… I’ve had listeners to other podcasts say that they spent, like, half of the time thinking I was saying “the Odyssey,” like, the book. So, I just wanted to make it clear. So, different word, T-H-E-O-D-I-C-Y, not the Odyssey. But the idea… This philosophical, and I would say spiritual, dilemma of “ How can God be good, and all-powerful, and bad things happen in the world?” It tends to be kind of a — there’s so much written on it — but it tends to be pretty… It can be really abstract. It can be a really abstract concept of sort of how philosophically, almost mathematically, reasoning out how this could be. And I approached this book out of a season in my own life that was painful, wanting to write about what that was like. And for me, the question of theodicy in that time was very real. How can you be good in the midst of this?
“I approached this book out of a season in my own life that was painful, wanting to write about what that was like. And for me, the question of theodicy in that time was very real. How can you be good in the midst of this?” Tish Harrison Warren
But it wasn’t so much that I needed this philosophically solved. I needed to know, how do I continue in the way of Jesus with all of these questions, with all of this uncertainty, with all of this ambiguity about following God and seeking light in the midst of darkness? What does it mean very pragmatically to walk with God? So, this book took away from me… I talk in the book about I was a priest too that could not pray. And a way back to prayer was the practice of Compline, these nighttime prayers that we talked about. And so, I took one prayer out of this collection of prayers that I just have grown to really love, that I pray often still, prayed to it this week. And I think I prayed it last night. And the book is a meditation on this prayer. At the end of this book, if you don’t pray Compline or, I don’t really care, like in other words, it’s not an apologetic for Compline or how to pray it. I more needed a way kind of into these questions.
And so, the way that I’ve talked about the book as an analogy, is that when scuba divers go into, like, dark underground — I’m sorry, underwater caves — they use what’s called a distancing line or a guideline where they basically tie themselves near the surface. And that tether allows them to go into this deep, dark spaces without losing their way, without losing oxygen, so that they can surface if they need to. So, I felt like this prayer allowed a kind of distancing line or guideline into these other questions I had about theodicy and where’s God in the midst of suffering, and why does God allow humans to be vulnerable? And how do we meet God in the midst of death? And why does joy feel so risky? And it felt like this prayer was a way into these questions that I needed to explore, but needed some structure to, kind of, explore without losing myself or losing my way. And so, Compline itself gave that to me, personally, but the book allowed me to kind of go deep into these questions in this way.
So, when you talk about… I mean, I would say prayer is kind of opening ourselves up to God’s eternal and constant and very intimate presence in all different ways. So, that can be with words, that could be without words, that can be through our bodies, that can be through drawing or writing, and that can be through received words or our own words, right, that we kind of drum up. But I, in the passage, you document — and it’s been a long time, so you’ve read it actually, more recently than I have — but I just tell a story about the darkest night I have ever been in. Like, the very literal darkest night was when I was in Uganda, and I was in a very small town, far away from any city. So, there was really no electric lights. And everything was lit by firelight. But that night because of a guerrilla warfare attack there, all the firelight had been put out, and we had to walk about, it was probably a quarter of a mile. Not far. It felt like forever.
And there was no moon. It was cloudy. I couldn’t see the hand in front of my face. And all we had was this teeny little lantern that creaked when we walked. I remember that. So, I remember the sound so vividly because I couldn’t see anything, so you’re hearing just not as upright.
So anyway, it was this tiny little light and there were four of us that were sort of gathered, like, close walking together. And I just talk about how so much of our life is lived like that. We don’t see what’s ahead of us. We have no idea if we’re in danger or not. We feel deeply vulnerable. And we gather with our close people, with our friends and hold to this tiny light that we can see around us, which often feels small compared to the great darkness around us. But it was all the light we needed. I mean, we got home and we got home safely that night. So, yeah.
Leaning on Faith for Answers
Jessica: I love that. You’re actually saying — because I know you don’t have your book in front of you, but I have your book in front of me — but on page 56, you say, "The believers’ constant posture is to lean slightly forward in anticipation. We wait for God to act, to set things right, to show up and work, whether that work is surprising and miraculous or quiet change of tides. We wait for God to bring healing to the sick, peace in our conflict, encouragement and disappointment, clarity in our befuddlement. And sometimes He does. And sometimes the sick die, the conflict worsens, the disappointment deepens, the confusion thickens. And yet we continue to watch and wait, knowing that the moment we can see this small circle of lantern light is not the whole road, not the whole story."
I just love how honestly you wrote. Just I think every question that I’ve wanted to ask, and it’s so honest. And I think sometimes we think, "Gosh, if we get this honest with God…" I mean, gosh, in particular, there’s this one paragraph where I’m like, yes, I think about this all the time! Even when I’m sort of admiring a monarch migration, I’ll immediately think about it, you know, and you say for every monarch migration I raise you tick- spreading Lyme disease. You know, and for every mother enraptured by her child’s first smile, there’s another mother who’s holding a dying newborn. And even in those moments of great joy, I’m often thinking immediately about someone else’s suffering. And you just put it all out there. And I think that’s what, in itself, was healing for me. And I guess I wanted us to close with the listener who is listening right now. And in fact, I was reading this book and I was with a family member who expressed to me, she is not a believer. And she expressed to me that when she ever she had questions about God growing up, she was just shut down.
And she just felt like, she never had a place to ask questions and to grapple. And now she’s like, "I think this is all a bunch of… This is a fuss." And I actually was like, "Well, you need to read this book." And she said she wanted to read it. But what would you say to that listener, who, maybe they’ve given up on prayer, given up on God, or hasn’t really been able to marry this idea that God is good, and there is still suffering? These are big questions. Where do we begin with that, so that we can have that tether like you said? Like, let’s say someone is swimming and the oxygen tank is on and they let go with the tether? How do you lead them back to that scuba diving tether?
Tish: Well, yeah, I think part of the task is that the church needs to be really honest about this. One of the reasons that I wanted to write this book — or that’s not the right way of saying it — one of my goals in writing this book was to just pull no punches, to be completely honest with how dark things really are and that Christianity doesn’t solve it. It doesn’t make things go well or go even better, necessarily. And so, I mean, I think there’s infinite hope offered in the Gospel. But it’s not that your dreams are going to come true, and that you’re not going to be deeply disappointed, and that you’re not going to have to suffer great grief and great loss. And I think that in very subtle ways, that the American church, in general, can start to all sort of sell a little bit of the lie of the prosperity Gospel: that if you do your thing, and if you’re good, if you sort of follow Christianity faithfully, that things will go well for you, or that you’ll have a flourishing family, and that your marriage will be good. And that you’ll have, you know, the number of children you want to have, and that you can have kind of the good life that you want.
“I think there’s infinite hope offered in the Gospel. But it’s not that your dreams are going to come true, and that you’re not going to be deeply disappointed, and that you’re not gonna have to suffer great grief and great loss.” Tish Harrison Warren
And then people get into their 20s, or their 30s, or their 40s, and they get really disappointed and really hurt, and they feel like they’ve been lied to because they did what they were supposed to do and it didn’t work out for them. And it’s because they were lied to. That’s not true. That’s not what Christianity has to offer. So, I think we set people up for unbelief if we tell them, do this and your life will work out, right? And so, I think we first need to start by being really honest that the world is very dark and that we are aware of that and we’re not gonna make it any shinier than it actually is. And that every question that your friend or my friends, many friends, or I could ask about how can God be good in the midst of this?
The Christians have been asking for thousands of years. We’re not the first people to face suffering. From generations and generations of people who have lost children, who have lived through plagues, who’ve lived through war, who have been disappointed, who have been hurt, who have broken relationships, who’ve had… The good seem to suffer, where the high and the wicked seem to prosper, right? This is something that people have wrestled with for thousands of years, and yet have met God in the midst of that and seen the presence of God to be real, and to be faithful, and to meet them where they are. And so, I didn’t want to offer kind of an abstract answer to that question as much as to say, here’s what the Christian story has to say about this. This is kind of how the story of creation fall, redemption, restoration bears on these questions, and here are practices that have sustained people through these questions for a long, long time because I don’t think that there’s gonna be an answer to evil that’s satisfying.
And I say that… I don’t think there’s an answer that feels wildly emotionally satisfying in the Christian life, but I also don’t think that… I haven’t found an answer outside of the Christian faith that’s satisfying either. It’s either just that the world is as it is and it’s always been this way, and it won’t change. And the strong prey on the weak and that’s the way of nature. Well, I get into this in the book, but there’s also all kinds of problems of goodness, right? That when we experience goodness, and joy, and beauty in the world, it seems like there’s more to it than just preference. It seems like there really is something good and true and beautiful that our hearts long for, that’s solid and sturdy, as you said earlier, and that’s real. It’s not just sort of wishful thinking. And so, what I wanna say is that the darkness is very real, but light is also very real.
And so, in the midst of that, what do we do with that? And I think that the Christian story gives the truest, the most compelling answer to how we walk in this world that’s so, so, so broken and so beautiful at the same time. And I think that for your friends —, I mean, going back to your question, I think it’s comforting to know, they’re not gonna be able to come up with a question that hasn’t been asked 100 times and hasn’t been wrestled with by saints and theologians and strugglers all along the way. So, if they’ve been in churches and places that don’t allow them to ask those questions, I would say, find places that do, right, find churches that do because there are churches that do or find even Christian saints that have asked these questions.
But I also think we need to sort of ask the right questions, because if they’re saying, "Why do bad things…?" I don’t think if your child has died, there’s not going to be an answer to why it happened that will ever satisfy you. There’s no rational explanation that’s going to make that okay. I don’t think ultimately that that’s the answer. I don’t think that’s what we’re asking. I think we’re asking, "How can I trust that there’s a God that loves me when there is such darkness in the world?" And that’s a better question. And so, we need to sort of follow that question where it leads because I don’t think there’s a why that’s ever gonna make it okay. So, I don’t know if that… It’s a hard question for me to answer what you said, because to some extent, this book is my answer to that.
Jessica: It is the answer.
Asking the Right Questions
Tish: It took me… I’m not saying my book is the answer but I am saying, for me, like, the question you asked is precisely what I was writing out of. And it took me 2 years writing 80,000 words, whittling it down to about half that, to be able to say anything. So, to some extent, read my book, but I think a lot of this does come down to, who is God? What is He like, or She, or It? What is He, She or the like? And is there someone who sees us in the midst of this pain who loves us? That’s the question. We’re never gonna…
Jessica: That’s the question.
Tish: …get sort of emotionally satisfactory part answer to any of this. But I don’t think that’s what our hearts are really, really after in the first place.
Jessica: And on that note, I’m going to close with the passage that — I love how I’m reading passages back to you. But it’s because I want our listener to understand how beautiful this writing is. And I have sent this, I’ve texted this picture of this part of the book to so many friends, but this, I wept like a child reading this. And I think it’s because, you know, you read Revelation 21:4, "God will wipe away every tear from these people’s eyes," and it’s been so quoted, like, at funerals or just, you know, it could become a very pithy Christian idea.
And I often thought of, like, almost like God is a magician and, like, right, I’m gonna see Jesus. It’s like “poof,” He’s gonna wave His wand and then all that grief goes away. And I’m just like, happy girl now rainbows, unicorns, yay, what I always wanted in life. But I love how you really took me to a new place and it’s given me… I’ve been working with my therapist on this past year and, like, his questions every week are, what are you grieving and what are you longing?
Tish: Those are great questions.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I wanna suck them in the stomach. And it’s like, the closer you get to Jesus, the more you grieve. And I’m like, well, I don’t like that.
Tish: That’s so true. And the more you long, I think the more you long.
Jessica: The more you long. Because the closer you get to God, the more you long because the more you see the beauty, right? And beauty, like, almost calls forth longing.
Tish: Oh my gosh, it’s true.
Jessica: And the longing calls forth grief.
Tish: What if we had instead of icebreakers, that we started every church, small group with those questions. What are you grieving? What are you longing?
Jessica: Yes. In fact, I am starting a small group with him in August. And those are the two questions that we’re going…
Tish: Oh, that is good.
Jessica: …to lead out with, with our group of people we are taking on this journey.
Tish: Okay. We have to get off this podcast. But going back to your question about your friend who’s walked away from the faith, what a different picture of faith she would have if she was consistently asked those questions in her church. Right?
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
Tish: To say that this is a place where you can grieve, this is a place where we are waiting for something that is not here, which involves deep longing.
Jessica: Deep longing.
Tish: So that to some extent to your friend, I would say, man, I’m sorry that you haven’t… I’m sorry the American church hasn’t asked you those questions. But I think God is asking those questions. And I want her or him to find a community that is asking those questions. And I want the church to be a place where that’s the questions we ask. The Scriptures are constantly asking those questions.
Tish: You can’t read the Psalms without it just being about what are you grieving and what are you longing for? I love that. I’m stealing that from your therapist.
Jessica: Steal away. On that note, I am going to read your words to you. So, this is page 52 for all of you guys, who already I’m sure have put this book in your Amazon cart. But it says, "Christians believe that a place of eternal joy not only exists but is more real than the diminished place of sorrow and pain we now know. The image of God wiping away our tears could, of course, be a metaphor, a statement that all things will at last be well. But what if it’s not strictly poetic language? What if in the face of our maker we get one last chance to honor all the losses this life has brought? What if we can stand before God someday and hear our life stories pulled for the first time, accurately and in their entirety with all the twists and turns in meaning we couldn’t follow when we lived through them. What if the story includes all the darkness of suffering, all the wounds that we’ve received and given to others, all the horror of capital D death, and we get to weep one last time with God Himself? What if before we began to live in a world where all things are made new, we weep with the one who alone is able to permanently wipe away our tears?"
I mean, I could even just start crying right now. Just this image of getting to just one final weep. So, it’s like the magician’s wand is gone. Now, in my imagination, there’s no wand. It’s like a final just like deep cry with God as He retells our story with everything that we couldn’t see. I mean, that alone is just so deeply comforting and consoling to me.
Tish: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s a part of my writing, it makes me cry. Right? And because I think it’s not… I often write more than I know. And I learned through what I’m writing and that, anyway, that scene that you said, is certainly longing of my heart. I mean, that’s a moment I think that we all long for and…
Jessica: And we’ll get. And we’ll get.
Tish: Yeah. Yeah. And I love the idea of God not being kind of a wizard that just zaps pain away because then, in some sense, it means He doesn’t see it or He doesn’t take it up into His hands and notice it.
“I love the idea of God not being kind of a wizard that just zaps pain away because then, in some sense, it means He doesn’t see it or He doesn’t take it up into His hands and notice it.” Tish Harrison Warren
Jessica: Well, everyone, this is our last conversation in the series “Decide, Don’t Slide.” We are going to take a few weeks off, and we’ll come back with a new series called, “Know Thyself.” And I am super excited about that series!
But in the meantime, I hope that you get some deep rest. I have been resting hard. And by rest, I mean I have even been taking a break from my normal hardcore workouts, I’ve been eating Blue Bell Ice Cream a couple times a week, I have had just schedule on my times off from work, I have just put down my phone, I have been reading a lot, and just resting, resting, resting.
That is a theme I’ve found from this last series. A guest we had on, we asked, “What’s a practice that you are going to reemerge with?” and they said, “rest.”
Rest. Rest. Rest.
So, I want to leave you with: I hope you can rest deeply. I hope you can Sabbath deeply. And I’ll miss you! I’ll miss you. I’m going to be gone for a few weeks, but hopefully this is a time to get caught up on all of the conversations you might not have been able to listen to yet!
So, go back, listen to some podcast conversations you may not have gotten to yet. And I will see you back in September when we kick off our new series, “Know Thyself.”
Thanks so much for being a Going Scared listener! I love getting to do this podcast.
Our show today was produced by Eddie Kaufholz. Our music for today’s show is by Ellie Holcomb. And I’m Jessica Honegger. Until next time, let’s take each other by the hand and keep going scared.