Myth-Busting: Myths About Trust with Dr. Charles Feltman

Jessica Honegger [00:00:03] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Going Scared podcast. This is your host, Jessica Honegger, founder of the world changing brand Noonday Collection. Join me here every week for conversations that encourage you to live a life of purpose by leaving comfort and going scared. Well, as you guys know, I'm the founder of Noonday and we are starting our holiday shopping season. You might have heard the podcast series that we launched in August where Liz Bohannan from Seiko Designs and I announced that Seiko is now merged under Noonday Collection and we are now a one stop ethical shop from anything that you might need for your gift giving this season. We have a men's collection, scent collection, we have an apparel collection, accessories collection, an incredible home collection. And I'm serious. If you are going to invest in gifts, why not invest in gifts that are going to give, give, give? Not only do they give to the international entrepreneur that you are purchasing the item from, but they also give to a local entrepreneur across the United States when you purchase from a Noonday Collection ambassador. So hop on over to NoonDaycollection.com, host a trunk show, host a holiday giving event in your community, or just shop online and take care of all of your gift giving through our website at Noonday Collection.com All right. We are continuing with our myth busting series today, and this was a true honor to get to have Charles Feltman on the podcast. Charles is the author of The Thin Book of Trust An Essential Primer for Building Trust at Work based on three decades of experience, working with individuals and teams to build, maintain and when necessary, restore trust. We have used this book at Noonday Collection as well, and I've used it in my partnership with Travis, and I started using it at home quite a bit. So we really cover all these areas of trust today, and we're going to bust some myths that we all carry about trust. Charles Feltman has over 25 years of professional experience coaching, facilitating, consulting to and training people who lead others. And I was reminded of his work when I recently was listening to Daring Greatly by Brene Brown, her podcast. He was recently on her podcast as well. He holds a B.A. in psychology from UC Santa Cruz and a masters in organizational development and communication from the University of Southern California. We carry around so many myths about trust, and trust is the foundation of all of our relationships. And really, business is about relationships, family is about relationships, community is about relationships. We need to learn how to build trusting relationships with others, and you're going to get to know every single thing you need to know about trust in today's episode. Thank you so much. It is such a gift to talk with you today.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:03:21] I'm looking forward to it.

Jessica Honegger [00:03:22] So, Marie, you know Marie, Marie, I want to call her a wizard, although I know that, you know, when you work with an executive coach, you, you know, you got to do the work. But she came in during a very critical time in my business partner and I's relationship where we had been in just crazy startup mode for years, building the plane while it was taking off. And then there came that moment where it was like what was going to get us to our next level of leadership was not going to work. And so we just did deep work with her for over a year. And I tell you Thin Book Trust and the cycle of commitment. I mean, these are now just commonplace words at my organization. And so thank you for writing this book.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:04:08] Oh, that's great to hear. I mean, I love it.

Jessica Honegger [00:04:11] It's also helped with parenting and parenting teens.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:04:14] Yeah.

Jessica Honegger [00:04:14] You know, and it's just so I wanted to start with this idea because we're in this series about, you know, myth busting and there's so many myths that we have about trust. And I think for me, I know I've often thought of trust is this binary thing. We either trust or we don't. You're either trustworthy or you're not. And you really break this down for us and provide these definitions and these distinctions around trust. But before we dive in, your definition of trust, I'd love for you to share what your definition of trust is.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:04:49] Sure. [00:04:51]Trust is or trusting is risking making something you value vulnerable to another person's actions. [8.1s]

Jessica Honegger [00:05:01] And no one likes to hear that.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:05:02] And many.

Jessica Honegger [00:05:04] It's dangerous. Yeah.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:05:05] Yes, like one vulnerability. But it's vulnerability.

Jessica Honegger [00:05:07] You have to be vulnerable. But that's that is like that's the crux of it.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:05:11] Yeah, it absolutely is.

Jessica Honegger [00:05:13] I have to tell you how you talk about distrust, it almost makes me cry. Was refreshing myself this morning before interviewing you and you say what is important to me is not safe with this person in this situation or any situation. That's what distrust is. And I just cringed. I just thought, Oh my God, that's not the leader I want to be. That's not the mom I want to be. That's not the friend I want to be. And yet, you know, what's so powerful about your work and your framework is that you actually show us that trust can be built and trust there can be repair where trust has been lost. So let's start with one of these myths, which is that you either trust someone completely or you can't trust someone at all, because I think that is pretty rampant.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:06:01] Yes, it is, sadly. And well, you know, I have to admit, that was my belief before I really started, before I learned that there were different ways of trusting, different assessments that I could make about trusting someone that were far enough apart, that I could have an assessment of trust, a positive assessment of trust or their trustworthiness if it were in one of these areas of distinction and not so in another. So I could actually trust someone in certain situations and not others to some degree, more in certain situations than in others. I could be intentional, and the word I use is wise about making decisions around trusting people and that I didn't have to write someone off completely just because, oh say for example, they are pretty bad at keeping their commitments. They may be trustworthy in that they really do care about me, us, what we're doing together. They are generally honest. They act with integrity and they're really good at what they do. They just for some reason don't meet their commitments. Well, that's an example.

Jessica Honegger [00:07:25] Right?

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:07:26] Or [00:07:26]it could be that they do meet their commitments well, but sometimes they stretch the truth or, you know, so I can A still trust them in those other kind of domains. And I will, I think, cover what those four domains are. I can still trust them in those other domains. And I can also put some guardrails around the areas where I'm finding it difficult to trust them. Even better, I can actually maybe have a conversation with them. [29.2s]

Jessica Honegger [00:07:55] About, oh, my gosh, yes, that's been the crux of our work, the conversations for action, the circle of commitment. Oh, my goodness. This is the stuff that's been so clarifying. So let's go ahead and talk about those domains care, sincerity, reliability and competence, which I love this competence piece because. I really tend to, I think, put a little bit more trust in someone. The competence weights pretty hard for me. And it's interesting because on our exact team in the hiring process, you know, it's values. And of course, you want the value and the fit. But I've always found when I'm like, oh, my gosh, look at their experience, their competence. And so it was it's been really nice for our team to be able to have these distinctions, to be able to say, I really do trust them in this area. But this is an area that, you know, I feel like I need I need a little bit more proof where I can really fully trust. So let's talk first and care, of course. I mean, care is, is everything. It's the air that we breathe that will trust is the air we breathe. But really creating trust has to start with care. So let's break down that first one.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:09:08] Sure. That one is. And as you say, it's in many ways, I think it's fundamental to building trust and maintaining it over the long haul and repairing it. [00:09:21]Care is an assessment. It's the assessment that I trust that you have my interests in mind as well as your own. When you make decisions and take action that you have my good in mind or my best interests, or you intend good for me. And that really, you know, in many ways is the foundation for or even in some people would say, synonymous with psychological safety. [30.0s]

Jessica Honegger [00:09:52] Mm hmm. That's so true. And, you know, it's interesting because I was thinking about how trust says it differently and in different domains. So in my marriage, you know, I really do. This is just I feel I know I'm cared for. I like I feel like 1,000% safe with my husband. I always have my kids, like creating that safety. It's very intuitive for me. But I have to say that this is something in my work environment that I I'm the CEO of the company, the founder. And I think sometimes there's been this perception, which perception is reality. That's something else I've learned through your work is it's like your intention doesn't matter how it's showing up for someone else is how it's showing up. But I think as a founder, it's kind of like, Oh my gosh, they'll do anything for the mission, you know, including overworking people and all of that. And then I'm such a I operate pretty quickly and I'm so different at home. I'm so different in my friendships. I actually lead leaders outside of this and leadership development. But you get me inside my sandbox of my social impact business that, you know, I've been building for a decade now and stopping to really listen and care for people and not just, you know, go for it with a mission. That's been an area of growth for me. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:11:09] Oh, don't be. We all have our blind spots and our areas of growth. And really the only embarrassment would be if you turn your back on it and don't actually work on it.

Jessica Honegger [00:11:24] Right. Right.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:11:26] So yeah, it sounds like you have been working on it and wow, how cool is that?

Jessica Honegger [00:11:32] It is. It is. Okay. So care, sincerity.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:11:35] Yeah. So that one is really about sort of a combination of being honest and acting with integrity, which are really very, very similar. But there's a little bit of a distinction. [00:11:47]Being honest is that you tell the truth or you when you say something, people can believe it. If you offer an opinion, they can trust that you have you've researched it. You're not just saying something that comes to your mind without a little bit of research behind it, without some grounding behind it. And if you're representing something, it's true. You actually, to the best of your knowledge, you know, you do, in fact, believe it's true. So honesty, I can I can really believe what you say. And then this idea of integrity, which is that if you say something, you say let's say you can express a value that you have. I can expect you to live by that value, to behave in ways that support that value, which is often we live in ways in which we are not completely true. [60.6s] And sometimes I have worked with leaders who declare something as a value for themselves. And then when they don't do that and they're not really thinking about it, they're just kind of, you know, doing what they do. And like just a small, teeny, tiny example, a, a leader of a team says, okay, I want I want us all to be able to question each other and our thoughts. And somebody questions the leader and the leader just cuts them off or comes back at them with, well, you know, you don't know what you're talking about or whatever. And the leader may not even realize that they've set themselves up for the expectation that they are going to listen to that different idea. And then when they don't, everybody except them is going to see it, notice it, and they're going to begin to distrust that leader.

Jessica Honegger [00:13:50] Yet we really saw this show up for us in the cycle of commitment, which we'll get into next when we talk about reliability. But you know, what's crucial in that cycle of commitment is the negotiating the request. And we are such a highly productive team and we're really high trust. I will say we've scored the highest on trust in all of our employee surveys, we got best place to work and 2020 in our industry of direct sales. But we recently did a merger acquisition and we are in the middle of a giant transition where we have another company kind of merge under our brand of Noonday collection. And the survey, the survey, the results are dropping quite a bit. And so even with, you know, you put some research in your book which by the way, Thin Book of Trust, it really is then. So I mean, we were giving you the cliff notes, but it's you really don't need Cliff Notes because you can actually digest and metabolize the book in a day's time. But I will say that, you know, in in that cycle of commitment being a culture that where you can negotiate the request, you know, and you can be in no culture, that's where we've gotten feedback where it's like, okay, you're making a request. We've got the, the customer performer and the do what by when and all of that. But I think there is a level of is it okay to negotiate and say, no, that's been a major area of growth edge for us.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:15:21] [00:15:21]And it just to be clear so that the trust assessment domain of sincerity is not so much about specific commitments, but rather sort of the more general walk your talk kind of walk your talk. [16.0s] Yeah. So if I say I'm, I have an open door policy, but then when somebody walks into my office, I'm on the phone and I'm on my computer and my door's open. Yes, but I'm not actually listening to what they say. That's one example of not really walking the talk, whereas you were starting to talk more about the domain of reliability and specifically using the what I call the cycle of commitment to reinforce one's reliability to have the greatest chance possible that commitments, all commitments made are actually followed through and completed.

Jessica Honegger [00:16:21] I mean, this is so powerful. I mean, this is it's been great to use at home with my kids instead of just like, hey, clean your room today. You know, it's like, can you clean? I'm making a request. I'm having a clear request. Could you clean your room today? What else do you have to get done? Okay, well, when can you do it by? Like, just having these clear commitments and performers and conditions for satisfaction. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is so mind blowing and it's so practical. So why don't we get into a little bit of this cycle of commitment?

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:16:52] Sure. And it's kind of interesting that you to bring that up, because I have just I'm just at the process part of almost finished with a project with a client, a company that has the CEO declared that he wanted the entire company to use the cycle of commitment. This is a company that has like about 1000 some employees. So it's not a huge company, but it's not a small company either. And he wants to make the cycle of commitment something that everybody does, that they use the language, they use the framework. And the reason he wanted, that he wants people to do this is to actually improve everyone's productivity while at the same time reducing stress that comes around, you know, oh, my God, I have all these commitments I've made and some of them are not completed and I don't know where I am with them. And oh, by the way, so and so owes me this and that and I've got to go ask them. I've got to follow up with them over and over again to get what I need from them. And so.

Jessica Honegger [00:17:57] How does. Yeah, tell us how this is because in some ways it's interesting because it can evoke stress at first when you're beginning to learn this framework because it's very direct. My business partner, we were considered more direct, but I would say our culture in general our employees, that's not as much the culture that we have. And we also we work with artisans in vulnerable communities around the world and most other cultures that we work with our, you know, indirect cultures, just culturally, that's how they are. And so, you know, it can feel a little stress evoking because it's it is direct, direct language, but then it can reduce the stress because it creates clarity. So. Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:18:41] Yeah, I hear the words of Brené Brown. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but.

Jessica Honegger [00:18:45] Yes, yes.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:18:47] [00:18:47]You know, clear is kind. So being clear about if I'm asking you for something, being clear about what I'm asking you to do, not because I inherently want to be direct and in some cases and in some cultures rude, but rather that I want to be clear enough that you know exactly what I'm asking for so that you can determine if you can deliver. And that's really the reason for a clear, direct, complete request. [31.3s] If you can't deliver, I need to know that now, not when what I asked you for is in my mind due, I need it at this time and you come back with something that either isn't what I thought I asked you for, or you've come back to me and tell me. Well, I couldn't do it by it by this time. I'm sorry, because that's too late. That's problematic for me now. So it's much better for you and for me if I can give you all the information you need to know in my request for you to be able to determine, Yeah, I can do that.

Jessica Honegger [00:19:58] Which takes so much time on the front end, but or it's not even time. It's just effort and thoughtfulness. And, and then for the person that you're making the request of, like it's also them getting to have that time to assess the time frame, what's required, etc.. So there's, it's more on the front end, but then it just absolutely eliminates a lot of the stress that can come when there is a lot of lack of clarity.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:20:27] Yeah, absolutely. Well, [00:20:30]I like to tell people it's really valuable to be to go slow, to go fast and slow upfront, because then you are all set to go really fast down the road. [12.8s] And so that's this is a lot like that. It is that in that yeah. A request when you think it through before you make it and fill in all the pieces you know who is who's making the request. Is it me or am I making it on behalf of somebody else? Who am I making it to? Is that the right person? Am I making it to someone who actually has the capability to fulfill, in my opinion, or should be able to, what do I want them to do? And I'll be clearer, clear about that. What am I, you know, mentioned this term conditions of satisfaction. What will satisfy me that it's done the way I want it to be done? And that might include, you know, okay. So a simple example is, yeah, all I want is a one page bullet point, one slide with four or five bullets on it. I don't need, you know, ten slide deck here or, you know, I need you to make a phone call, not send an email. Mm hmm. I want you to make a phone call, not send an email. [00:21:47]So what are my conditions of satisfaction. Are they clear? Do they give you enough information to know really what I want you to do, what I what will satisfy me that you've done this? And then, of course, time frame by when do I need this or want this to be done? And that is probably the most often left off part of a request. You know, when, when do I want this by? Not that you will be able to do that, but now, you know, as my chosen performer, now you know what I'm asking for. And you can ask, can I really get it? [35.9s] You know, I know what it is that he wants. I know what his conditions of satisfaction are. And I know by when can I do this in this time frame and what will it take? And now you're in a position to say, yes, that's one response. Yes, I can do exactly what you're asking or No, I can't do what you're asking at all. Or I don't want to do I won't do what you're asking at all, which is not common in a business environment. Usually what we do is make a counter offer which might sound like, Jessica, I can't do exactly what you're asking. I can't do it in the timeframe, can't get it done by Friday. I could get it done by Monday. Or I can't do all of what you're asking because I just don't have the resources or the expertise. If we're willing to bring in help, that would be great or, you know, that that would make it work. Or, you know, if you're my boss, help me prioritize this. Tell me which things that are currently on my plate that I should kind of push back so that I can get what you're asking done by the end of the day.

Jessica Honegger [00:23:40] [00:23:40]And then there's the reporting completion, which is something that we definitely did not have present. And that is this other work because that that really for me, I've got I'm a customer often at my company just in the position that I hold. And so just that declaring of completion is it also gives you a chance to really celebrate sort of, okay, we made a request. It's been declared complete. Here's my satisfaction with that. It's so simple, but it makes such a huge difference. [30.5s]

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:24:11] Yes. Yeah, it does. And it doesn't have to be a big deal to just be simply thank you. It's especially well, there's the reporting completion part, right. Especially when what you've asked for is for me to go do something that I'm going to deliver, if you will, to somebody else. Let's go back to that phone call. For example. I make that phone call, but reporting completion is when I say I've done it. Hey, Jessica, I did it this afternoon just to let you know. So now you can declare satisfaction. Great. Thank you very much.

Jessica Honegger [00:24:42] So good.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:24:43] Very simple.

Jessica Honegger [00:24:44] But it's simple and it's so great with parenting. I'm telling you, you know, instead of this, like, go clean your room, it's like, okay, can you clean your room? And my conditions of satisfaction, they're going to be really different than my teenage boys, you know? So.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:24:58] And. Yes, yes. And that that's a place where you might want to negotiate, right?

Jessica Honegger [00:25:03] Right. That's true. That's true. Like, okay, good enough for me is going to be, you know, the dirty clothes are, they're at least not on the bed. You know, like they'll move there. They'll say they clean their room, I mean, their dirty clothes or the floor to the bed. I'm like, no, that is not that is not satisfactory for me, but it is really great language. And then the last distinction that you have is this idea of competence. I think the reason it means a lot to me is I'm definitely a Jill of all trades. I am not a spike. I'm an entrepreneur. Pretty typical entrepreneur that kind of learned on her feet. And of course, now I'm, you know, 12 years in and I am having this new emerging sense of competence, which is really cool, where suddenly I'm like, Oh, I'm a good leader. I can go into some hard conversations and gosh, I think I can help someone feel really listened to and heard. And so there are you know, there's these emerging areas of competence. I also think if you struggle a little bit with perfectionism, then it's like, at what point are you fully like competent, you know, in something? But talk to us a little bit about competency as it relates to trust.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:26:13] Yeah, well, I think the key in this trust assessment domain is standards, shared standards. What do you and I both there kind of touches on the conditions of satisfaction and a complete request, and it goes beyond that in the sense of what do you consider a competent leader and does that match what the people you're leading consider to be the actions and behaviors of a competent leader? Understanding what everybody considers to be the standard that you're working to, that you're aiming towards so that you can then make assessments about a competence. And again, it could become rather than, oh, god, he just did X, which is a sign of lack of competence for sure. [00:27:12]You can now have a conversation about, okay, so you know what, we all decided that this was what competence looks like, sounds like to all of us together. And you know what? I can automatically or not automatically. But right away I can begin to see where I'm falling short and say, hey, I can't I can't do that. I'm not what to do to do that yet. Can you support me in learning more? I'm still learning. I'm learning on the job. Or can you help me out with this and support me? Can you? You know, if I'm you're my boss, I can say, hey, you know, I, I don't think I can do this. These kinds of things that you're asking me to do to the level of competence, the standard of competence then that you're expecting from me and that you've shared with me. And so now I can ask for help, support, so that I can. [57.0s]

Jessica Honegger [00:28:09] Really is about conversations, right? Underlying all of this is what are the missing conversations? And oftentimes that's we aren't having those kind of conversations.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:28:21] Yeah. [00:28:21]One of the things that I, I talk with leaders about is the notion that one of the ways that you can define an organization is this a network of conversations. This comes from Bob Dunham, by the way. Generative leadership. But this idea that an organization is a network of conversations and the more effectively people are having conversations, the right conversations with the right people at the right times and in the right ways, the more successful that organization is going to be. [32.9s]

Jessica Honegger [00:28:55] And then you add trust to those conversations, like, if these are conversations where there is safety, I mean, man, that organization is unstoppable.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:29:03] Yeah, yeah. When there's the right way for me means I mean, safety. There's trust in the relationship. But here's, here's a good example of a place where I didn't share the standard. Right?

Jessica Honegger [00:29:17] Right.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:29:19] So part of the right way the standard for the right way is that there is trust in a relationship, sufficient trust, so that people can actually engage in that conversation. And that conversation may be a debate about what's the right way to go. And I may have a very different idea than you do, but we can really get into it and we can argue and debate what's the right way to go or what's the way we should do this, or whatever it is. If we trust each other, if we trust that our debate is going to remain at the level of task or the level of ideas, and I'm not going to suddenly turn and start attacking you as a person.

Jessica Honegger [00:30:02] Oh, my gosh. I now feels like there's these critical elements that need to be present to create those kind of conversations. We're safety is present. But when it is, you know, like when debate can happen, that just already is just a sign that there's healthy trust in the room where no one feels diminished, everyone feels listened to. Okay. I want to talk about this other myth that I hear a lot is that trust takes a long time to build but can be destroyed in an instant.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:30:33] Yeah, I hear that a lot too. [00:30:36]And first of all, it just doesn't always take a long time to build. You can build some pretty strong trust pretty quickly. To really cement it, it does take a bit of time. Again, I'm going to go back to Brene Brown again for a moment. You know, she talks about trust is built in as small moments. It's when we make ourselves vulnerable to each other, when we do follow through with our actions in a way that other people see as trustworthy. Doesn't have to be a big thing, it can be a small thing. And in fact, a lot of small things build up to a big thing over time and a really strong trust. Then there's the it can be destroyed in an instant. And my experience with that, both personally and in observing in other people is yes, it can be seemingly destroyed in an instant, except that when there is strong trust, there's the foundation for being able to go and to go back and talk about what happened, what it is that's damage. The trust or even truly betrayed the trust so that repair can be made. And also, generally speaking, trust can be damaged in the small things as well as it can be built. [84.9s]

Jessica Honegger [00:32:02] That's so true. Gosh, you're right. I mean, there's little things like, you know, some typical old fashioned version is like the husband who says when he's going to be home for dinner, you know, and like multiple nights, multiple weeks is like never home when, you know, he says he's going to be home and that that feels so small. But over time, it erodes trust.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:32:23] Yeah, absolutely. You know, saying I'm going to yeah, I'll do this. Whatever it is we have our teenage kids to think about in this respect, too, right?

Jessica Honegger [00:32:33] Totally. Oh, my gosh. That's what I actually wanted to ask you about, because switching gears to parenting teens a little bit, because, I mean, listen, teens are going to go off and do things you don't want them to do. I mean, this is just the nature of that developmental stage of their lives. But then you find them out. Right. I mean, come on. We've all found I mean, I have found things my kids did not tell me about. How do I have that conversation? Because a trust is broken. I mean, my trust is broken. But I think in the past it's been more like, so I don't trust you anymore. You're not trustworthy. But I think your framework creates these distinctions. So it's is it being able to have this conversation about is it reliability? Is it sincerity? Talk to me. I know you've raised kids.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:33:24] And it's so much easier working with leaders in a company.

Jessica Honegger [00:33:28] Yeah, totally. That's for darn sure.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:33:30] So much easier. Yeah, well, and partly because in that relationship with our children, we're so invested. Right.

Jessica Honegger [00:33:39] The care is there, but care is there.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:33:42] The stakes are very, very high to us over time. Of course, you know, looking back, I hope so. I have a teenage eight year old, so he's still kind of in that teenage realm. He's out of high school. He's in college. But and then I also have a my oldest daughter will turn 50 next spring. So wow. I've seen it kind of go, you know, alone or I'm going to go, oh, yeah. Okay.

Jessica Honegger [00:34:08] Guys, what great perspective do you share? Do you share those of us that are raising these teens right now, especially too. You know, we're kind of the first ones to be doing it in this. Well, we are. We're not kind of we're were the first ones to be doing at this technological age. And there's no playbook. Like, I feel like we used to have these mentors, right, that you could go to. But the world has changed so quickly just in the last ten years that, you know, even the 25 year olds that are mentoring my kids are like, oh, yeah, I didn't I didn't have Snap or, you know, etc.. So yeah, talk to us about these conversations around trust with our kids and what those look like. How do you apply this? I'm putting you on the personal spot.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:34:50] You are. And I'll have to tell you, I'm not really that good at it sometimes. I've made some pretty significant gaffes. Yes. And looking back at how my older kids, my 49 year old and my 43 year old have become really wonderful human beings, adult human beings, and who are raising their own kids and doing a fabulous job of it.

Jessica Honegger [00:35:18] Let's say you find something on your teen's phone.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:35:22] Or you find a, you know, a vape pen or you.

Jessica Honegger [00:35:25] Right.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:35:26] In their pocket when you're doing the laundry or. [00:35:28]Well, I think the first thing to do is before you even have that confrontational conversation, they need to know that you care about them, that that that trust in the domain of care is there if you love them, that you care about them. [17.5s] You know, even remember looking back at my own childhood.

Jessica Honegger [00:35:50] Right? I mean, come on. We all been there.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:35:52] Yeah, we've been there. We've hidden. We've done stuff that we didn't want our parents to know about because we were afraid that somehow they would think poorly of us, that they and want to intervene and change something. And of course they did or would have or.

Jessica Honegger [00:36:11] Right.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:36:11] Do. And just like we do, I you know, I don't want my kids vaping and there's good reasons for that, right? So I want him, first of all to know that that's where I'm coming from. I'm not coming from, oh, I have a rule about this. It's still going to be hard because they do they want to, you know, they're going to do what they want to do or they going to try really, really hard to do what they want to do in spite of what you want them to do. And so it's a it's a dance. I think talking about it from the perspective of I really do care about you. Just like, you know, [00:36:47]when I have a conversation, if I were to have a conversation with somebody in the work domain around behavior that they have that I find really untrustworthy, I can say, here's the behavior that's a problem and here's why I think it's a problem, why I'm concerned about it. And you may think that you know everything now. And that's you know, I got to hand it to kids. They always do. I did. I knew everything and my parents were idiots. [26.4s]

Jessica Honegger [00:37:14] Right. That is the narrative that has not changed. No.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:37:18] There's nothing different about that now, even in our age of, you know, the Internet. So I have to help I have to help them really think about especially as they're growing and learning about themselves. I want to help them make choices for themselves intentionally, not just because I want them to do it this way, but because they need to learn to be responsible for themselves. So they're sometimes you just got to say no. Right?

Jessica Honegger [00:37:50] Right.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:37:51] You just look, you can't you can't go to that party. I have a pretty good idea of what's going on. No, no, but I don't know. I really have a pretty good idea of what's going to be going on at that party. And I don't want you to be involved with that or, hey, vaping is really not good for you. I really don't want you to be doing it. So let's talk about this and what what's important to you about why do you want to do in the first place? What's important to you about it. Oh, well, it's just because everything everyone else is doing it. Okay, let's talk about that. What's important to you? I get it that you want to be you know, you want to be in with those folks. They're your friends are doing it. You don't want to seem like you are doing something different. You're not with them. And let's talk about how you can manage that ground, how you can be yourself. It's difficult.

Jessica Honegger [00:38:48] But as I'm telling you and.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:38:50] Road to walk down.

Jessica Honegger [00:38:51] Nothing's been harder. Nothing's been harder than the teenage years, I tell you what. But it's good stuff.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:38:58] And, you know, the kids ultimately turn into almost always turn into the kind of adults that we can be proud of.

Jessica Honegger [00:39:07] That's right. That's right. That's cool. I love your perspective from your 50 year old all the way down to an 18 year old. Well, Charles, thank you so much. Again, The Thin Book of Trust. I've watched your second edition and it just is it's essential reading. That's what it is. It is essential reading. And thank you for sharing with us today.

Dr. Charles Feltman [00:39:29] You're very welcome, Jessica. It's been it's been a pleasure talking with you.

Jessica Honegger [00:39:41] Our music for today's show is by my good friend Ellie Holcomb. And I'm Jessica Honegger. Until next time, let's take each other by the hand and keep going scared.