Brittney Moses, Codependency vs. Healthy Dependency

Jessica Honegger [00:00:03] Hey, there, welcome to Going Scared. I'm Jessica Honegger, founder of the world changing brand Noonday Collection, and I'm so glad to have you here for today's conversation. Our Going Scared community gathers here every week for direct and honest conversations that help you live a life of courage by leaving comfort and going scared. Welcome back to the Know Thyself series. This series is your step-by-step guide to discover how to get to know yourself so that you can hold space for others in a safe, generous, and non-anxious way. Today, we are going to be talking about codependency with Brittney Moses. Brittney is a mental health advocate, encouraging the integration of faith, culture, and wellness. She has a wealth of experience. She formally founded an international youth nonprofit ministry and is a National Alliance on Mental Illness Certified Support Group Facilitator and crisis text line counselor. Her real-life experience allows her to distill theory into practical methodology, and she gets super practical on Instagram, where I have a lot of her reels saved so that I can play them again and again. Today, we're going to break down codependency, what it is, what it isn't. And Brittney herself was in a previous marriage with a person struggling with addiction and identifies as having been codependent in that marriage. And we also talk about how codependency can show up in friendships and family. Let's give it a go. Brittney, so excited to have you here today,

Brittney Moses [00:01:47] So excited to be here, I know we've been wanting to chat for a while, so it's an overdue conversation.

Jessica Honegger [00:01:53] It's long overdue. Brittney, I love following you on Instagram. Brittney creates these really great bite size mainly reels that are geared towards mental health. And then you and I have a friend in common, Toni Collier. So that is how we are here on this show right now. I would love to hear how did you come to start speaking up to your audience on Instagram about mental health specifically?

Brittney Moses [00:02:16] Yeah, it's so funny. It's kind of been all these twists and turns that I didn't even expect myself, but with the reels, that's just kind of been my way of in a fun, entertaining and digestible way talking about mental health. So that's been super fun. [00:02:29]But for me, a lot of what I do is at the intersection of faith, mental health and wellness, and that comes from my experience in the community and specifically like volunteering in the church and in the community for years and running into a lot of mental health crises. And at the time, just feeling underequipped and feeling like there was a gap in my knowledge and my understanding, and also having my own experiences with mental health challenges like anxiety, like depression, trauma, what have you. [31.2s] Right? None of us come out of this life kind of unscathed in some way and deciding to go back to school to get into the study of it, to do more mental health work in the community with organizations such as NAMI, the National Alliance of Mental Illness, got to study at UCLA, do a thesis there and have been translating that into online content in a way that is relatable. That's understandable. That kind of bridges the gap between the everyday person and the research world, and that's what I love. That's kind of my jam.

Jessica Honegger [00:03:35] Well, I love it. I have so many of your real save so you guys can give Brittney a follow up. Brittney Moses. We're going to put all of this in the show notes, of course, but today, so we are almost at the end of our Know Thyself series. We have done really a very rich series about the importance of awareness and then tools towards awareness. And I wanted to talk today, yay about codependency. We like our favorite word these days, our favorite word, our favorite word. And you know, I wanted to talk about it in the context of how this can show up in families, how it can show up in relationships and in friendships as well. I think sometimes we hear the word codependent, and we automatically get sort of boyfriend, girlfriend, almost addiction abuse and which is very common in that. I kind of wanted to cover it all. And let's just start there. What is codependency?

Brittney Moses [00:04:35] Oh yeah, this is great. I'm like lived experience over here. I've totally dealt with codependency at some point in my own life. But for starters, co-dependents for one, it's not a mental health diagnosis. OK, so it's not a disorder. It's not in the DSM five. And the word arose around the forties and fifties in the context of AA Alcoholics Anonymous, actually, as psychologists and counselors kind of began looking at relationship and family dynamics and how it shaped people's mental health specifically around addiction. You know, a lot of that work came out of the addiction, work and substance abuse world of experiencing where maybe there's someone who is enabled to continue in these unhealthy habits and someone who's in who's the enabler, who's kind of, you know, allowing it to continue happening or kind of feeding into that dependency. [00:05:31]So, you know, a lot of times when thinking about codependency, it's really this enmeshed relationship where neither person seems to be able to function wholly and independently. Like I said earlier, many times, there's like a giver or caregiver and a taker. So the caregiver has this tendency to need to fix, need to fix things and be the one that's depended on. And the taker can't like function without them, can't function on their own without them. So at the core, there's usually there. There are usually these unclear kind of or lack of boundaries. There's over responsibility on one end, on the end of the caretaker and there's overreliance on the other end, which is kind of the end of the taker. [55.3s] And it can happen between family members. It can happen between friends. And I think we talk a lot about it in the context of romantic partners. So that's kind of the gist of codependency.

Jessica Honegger [00:06:40] How I mean, I love how you share the whole story, and I do think it's important for us to note that it isn't a diagnosed disorder, it is a dysfunction description of a dysfunction that can happen in a relationship. Now enabler person being enabled giver taker. I am someone who I receive a lot of value when someone is depending upon me. Hmm. Like, there is no better way for me to feel close to you as a friend if I'm the one that you're going to call when you're going through a crisis. Yeah, I love being there for people in hard times. And so I feel like in that respect, when I think of codependence, I think of a friendship specifically I had in high school and it was a girl going through a lot of abuse at home, and she didn't even really want to be around the house. I didn't have like a ton, I came to faith in an early age, which didn't really, I mean, like deep faith as a teenager, a little bit rare. So I didn't have tons of deep friendships, and there I was with this friend, who I just received a lot of value. And I even remember going on a family vacation with my parents and my grandma. She was taking us to Europe to go so, you know, understand our family roots. And I remember like, I have to call this girl, I have, you know, where's the next phone? And that is really when I think of co-dependence, I think of that friendship. And so I would love for you to share the giver, the taker. What are those narratives that the giver? What's the story the giver is telling herself? And what is the story that the taker is telling himself or herself?

Brittney Moses [00:08:30] That's so good, and thank you for bringing that up, because it's interesting, that dynamic, because it can kind of go both ways. I know even times in my life where I was the one who was enabling, and then when I was the one who was enabled and depending on someone else for my wholeness, happiness, security, what have you. So it's very common and something that I did want to say as we're clarifying this is I think we've all experienced some signs of these and to some extent, kind of on a spectrum. And that's because, you know, we do use the word co-dependence a lot in our culture. It's kind of like a buzzword now. And so I

Jessica Honegger [00:09:08] really want to

Brittney Moses [00:09:08] totally right. Yeah. So I do really want to take the time to clarify that healthy dependance is valid, right? Like there is some that have thank you for saying yes. Yes, because I

Jessica Honegger [00:09:22] in that I can go back into attachment, which we did our very first podcast on which people that are avoidant. Actually, they need to learn how to be too dependent and anxious attachers are tend to be overly.

Brittney Moses [00:09:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I was just going to say it attachment theory. Healthy friendships. Exactly. And I was just going to say attachment theory, I think, is a great kind of more detailed, broken-down way of gauging where each individual might be at right instead of having kind of this blanket term because we are created for some level of dependency. It's actually something called the dependency paradox. And I don't know if you've read the book and have it, tell me about that.

Jessica Honegger [00:10:04] You know, I didn't read Attach because it was I'm 20 years married and I think it was very focused. A little bit more on romantic, really.

Brittney Moses [00:10:12] It was. But since then,

Jessica Honegger [00:10:15] yes, I've done a lot more of a deep dove into attachment. I would say my primary work with my therapist over the last year has been kind of discovering my issues. Yeah, OK, I keep cutting you off.

Brittney Moses [00:10:27] So go, go, you're good. I was going to say because it can play out in a multitude of ways. Right, right. Because we'd still take ourselves into every relationship. [00:10:36]And so the dependency paradox is actually this idea that when we do have a healthy, secure dependency, it does give us the foundation and security to then face outward to our world and approach it from discovery and to show up as our full selves because we have a secure base in these relationships. [20.4s] So there is something to be said about having a healthy dependency, right? [00:11:02]And I think the difference between dependance, healthy dependency and codependency is that everyone is understanding their own boundaries and their own responsibilities and taking accountability for themselves, [11.1s] right? And so, yeah, it's you know, the book talks about how you know, we can when our partners are dependable and make us feel safe, then we can turn our attention to all the other aspects of life that make our existence meaningful. And research has found that when people felt that their goals were supported by, you know, their partner or friend, they had increased self-esteem, they had an elevated mood, and they also rated a higher likelihood of achieving their goals. So I just want to get that out there. There is you're nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with anyone for wanting a secure and dependable and consistent relationship. So and we are wired for that. So just that putting that out there and friction with

Jessica Honegger [00:11:56] you and friends and I even you know that I'm in this small group this year, this intentional small group and the whole goal of the group is to be a place where we can tell our truest story. And it's explicitly a place to be seen, soothed, safe and secure so that we can then go out and accomplish the purposes that we're meant to accomplish in our lives. And so that that is a beautiful thing. I think we end up in the codependency because of our own woundedness and, you know, the meaning that we create around our woundedness. So I'm curious, what is that story that the, you know, I would say, anxious attacher or the one that is more the enabler and then the one being enabled? What have you found are those stories?

Brittney Moses [00:12:50] Yeah, yeah. Now that we've kind of clarified what healthy dependance is so that we can get a juxtaposition. You know, the enabler, you know, as an enabler. And this is speaking from someone who has a past of being an enabler. You know, usually there's trouble setting clear and healthy boundaries. That's where that enmeshment is taking place. There's that need to care take, the need to feel important to someone, the need to matter to someone. There's a lot of people pleasing involved and a lot of times when you're enmeshed in that way as an enabler, you don't really know what you're feeling right or you're kind of disconnected from your own convictions in a way because a lot of times you're over focused on what others are feeling and you're over focused on what you need to be to others. And so often time the nature of that relationship may leave you feeling drained or exhausted, and you may also feel the need to fix and control other people's behavior and actions, which is something that we don't have any control over. We can't control what choices someone makes, but a lot of times when you are an enabler, there can be an aspect of control in there in trying to get the person to do what you want and need them to do and also needing them to need you right. And there I mean, those narratives can come from I mean, those narratives can come from a variety of things that can come from often our childhoods. You know, maybe we were in an abusive or harmful, whether it be mentally, physically, emotionally, you know, situation. And maybe we were taught to sweep things under the rug or it just wasn't really talked about or you weren't protected, you know, in situations where you should have been protected. And so it kind of gives us this inner, this inner voice that our needs don't matter, that other people's needs matter more than ours. You know that another person's harm or what they're doing, you know, matters like how it affects us matters less, you know, different things like that where we've been conditioned to be disconnected from our own convictions and our own needs at the cost and sake of others. And we can kind of be conditioned into that mindset. And so you fall into relationships or friendships where you know you're suppressing your needs, you're in meshing those lines, you're blurring those lines between what your convictions are, what your responsibility is and what the other person's is. And you just automatically taken that mode to fix and what we call it, like the savior syndrome, right?

Jessica Honegger [00:15:35] Yeah. Uh-Huh. Uh-Huh. Gosh, it can feel so good, though

Brittney Moses [00:15:42] ..until it doesn't. Until it's exhausting, until it's draining, until your life is kind of being taken down with it.

Jessica Honegger [00:15:49] Right? You know, because on the other end of that, because you can be there for someone in crisis, you can, you know, love to feel needed and all of those things. But it really it turns codependent when the other person is taking advantage of you in a way, right? Is. Yeah. Talk about the other side of the coin.

Brittney Moses [00:16:10] Yes. [00:16:11]So the person that's enabled, typically what you really see is this abdication of responsibility. You know, they are oftentimes a grown human being who can make their own phone calls, schedule their own appointments, you know, whatever it is that they need to do to kind of get their lives in order or to make their own choices, but they just totally abdicate that responsibility. And with that, there's this sense of entitlement that you, the other person or someone else should be doing it for them, you know? There's also this kind of feeling needy, maybe, of someone else's intention or approval in order to feel fulfilled as well, like it is someone else's responsibility to make us feel a certain way to make us feel love, to make us feel approved. [50.1s] What have you? So there's usually this abdication of responsibility that is completely put on someone else. There's this lack of independence where they're not taking their own autonomy to make the decisions or even work to try to even kind of figure out some things for themselves to take some responsibility for their own direction. That's kind of put on the other person. And because they're so used to this other person or, you know, other relationship, you know, meeting all those needs are filling all those needs and enabling it all the time, sometimes a sense of entitlement can grow where now it feels like they're supposed to be doing these things for you. But it's really like you are a fully capable adult who can do these things for yourself, but you're choosing not to. It's a tricky thing. [00:17:46]And then for I would just say for both of them. And you mentioned this earlier with your your friend. You realize like you were kind of having or spending time with less friends or having less friends, really with both the enabler and the enabled. There's this lacking of other social support systems. There's this lacking of other support systems in general because there's so much heavy focus on one person. So it puts a strain on their relationship because it puts a lot of pressure on one person to fulfill everything. And on the other hand, for the other person, there may be a fear of abandonment and maybe even manipulation out of guilt to keep that other person in the relationship. [40.1s] And in both, there also tends to be some low self-esteem, not all the time, but somewhere in there due to needing to serve another to have a sense of purpose or being dependent on the other. So you do kind of see those traits in both, and it's codependent, meaning that it's a cycle, you know, they're feeding into each other. And typically someone within that has to break the cycle has to set a boundary. Even though it's uncomfortable, even the other person may not like it or still want to hold on to that control in order for a healthier relationship to be built. It's kind of that idea of things have to be broken down so they can be rebuilt healthier than before.

Jessica Honegger [00:19:10] That's was going to be. My next question is, I think for any of our listeners that might maybe they're in a friendship or maybe they're in a relationship. Maybe they're in a marriage where there is abuse of substances, or maybe they're maybe they're parenting a teen, you know, I mean, this can show up in so many different places, and they feel they're aware like something is off in this dynamic. But I don't exactly know what it is, and I'm scared to death to change it. What would you say to that?

Brittney Moses [00:19:48] Yeah, I mean, it's when you've become familiar with something, it just kind of becomes your norm, right? And sometimes you're so deep into it that you don't even realize like, Oh my gosh, we're in a completely enmeshed, codependent relationship because it's been going on that way for so long. First, I would love to recommend the book Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. That's a great book. I think that definitely helped me when I was going through a codependent relationship where I was an enabler. There was also substance abuse involved. They make a really great picture that it's like your life is kind of like, you know, it's like your yard and your property and your grass, right? And then you have fences around it to kind of show, OK, this is a part of my property that belongs to me, that I'm responsible for. That's the side of your property that belongs to you. Right. There's kind of those boundaries. [00:20:35]So the first thing would definitely be to try to get clear on setting and defining those responsibilities. Right? I think that's the first thing. Like, what am I responsible for and what are you responsible for as an autonomous person who is capable of making your own choices? You know, what are those responsibilities? Maybe that's something you can work through together, depending on the relationship. And then the other thing is having other systems of support and resources. [33.4s] So I have a tendency to fall into codependency because I'm like, you like you said earlier, like, I just want to help people. I'm a big helper. I was that person that had no boundaries and was just like, I need to help, you know, I need to be there. I need to be there for every single person and just completely sacrifice all of myself, you know, for it, which isn't great because that's how we have burnout, right? And then obviously, we don't really have the right motivations. It's to make ourselves feel better. It's so people can know that we are at. It looks like it looks real good.

Jessica Honegger [00:21:41] It's real. Sacrificial. And I'm there for someone else, but it's really filling a need, are you familiar with enneagram?

Brittney Moses [00:21:51] Absolutely. I might, too. No, I'm a three wing two. I got mixed up there.

Jessica Honegger [00:21:55] OK, I'm not a two, I'm a seven, but it's a social seven, which can show up, OK, I have two ish where we're very aware of our selfishness, which is what sevens are kind of known for. But so we go, we're like counter so hard against that. So it goes, save everyone else in order to kind of hide behind our own selfishness. But anyway. Yes, but to use especially, you know, I know that it's so funny because the other night I was leaving my kids youth group at our house and I was I was leaving one of the youth group leaders, and she had just had a baby. And I was like, So what can I do for you? Can I bring in some food like, you know, she's like, Well, we're pretty covered and can I? And I'm like, Well, what about clothes? She's like, Gosh, someone bought, bought out our baby registry. And I'm like, Well, what can I do for you? And she just kind of gave me this blank stare, which is a three week old. And I said, What are you in enneagram? She goes, I'm a two,

Brittney Moses [00:22:50] and I'm like, Oh, well, you're going to be able to tell me your needs right now. That's so funny. That's so funny. I'm a three, and that's kind of like the I don't know how to explain it kind of like almost like the public heroes and like the need to like, publicly fix and make change it. I mean, I mean, that's me like to a T, for sure. And so I have to always like check in with God myself, you know, just what are my motivations? Right? That's a big one. It's what are my motivations. But, you know, going back to what we were saying about some solutions. So a big one is having systems of support and having resources on hand. I've really learned to the importance of having resources on hand and the fact of knowing what my scope is like. Where does my responsibility begin and end? [00:23:38]You know, for me, there's this really great scripture that applies universally where Paul talks about how God loves a cheerful giver, so decide upon how much you can give, right? And it's it's very like distinctive, like you are making an intentional decision to see, OK, what is my role in this person's life? Where does that role begin and end according to my capabilities? Right? And only you will know that for yourself and be honest, right? So knowing where your role begins and ends, you know, there's this idea of like one plants a seed, one waters, another makes it grow. But a lot of times we want to be a person's entire process, like we want to be the sole focus of their entire process. And that's just too much burden and responsibility on any one person. [47.5s] So recognizing that and being OK with that being settled and secure in your soul without the fact that you don't, you are not meant to be all things to one person, even in a romantic relationship. You know, a lot of times there's the expectancy of the spouse to fulfill every single need. You know, I'm like, That's what friendships are for. I'm engaged, I'm moving into marriage and it's just like, we have all these friendships and I'm like, This is so great because, you know, I can't, you know, I might rant to my friends, but Jason might not want to hear my girl rant for five hours. I mean, it's just like, I have to spread that out. And a lot of that totally. I'm with you, right? A lot of that was really clear to me in my season of singleness because I took I was married before and went through a divorce when I was younger, and there was a lot of codependency and some substance going on in that relationship. That was a part of some of those issues. And so when I was single, you know, I had to be reminded like all those needs that I was seeking out of one person, like, how can I spread that out, right? Because we are we need love. We need belonging. We need like these are all basic human needs like companionship. But consider spreading those out, you know, mental health and emotional health. It takes a village. I truly believe that. And so and there's so much in just research and everywhere too to speak on the importance of social health and how our social wellbeing plays a role in our overall well-being. So, you know, really just having some resources on hand. So I do that a lot because I have a lot of people that come to me. As you can imagine, I talk about mental health, so I'm kind of like the mental health person in my circle, in my personal life, but also like online and everything. So I have to set very clear boundaries because those are very hard conversations where people feel like they just want to hear from you on that issue sometimes. And it's just like, Hey, you know, here's a great thing if you're if you're, say, dealing with someone who's enabled and they're struggling with something or they're constantly depending with you on you for issues can just be like, Hey, I love you and I'm here for you and I want to be able to do more. However, like we let's look at these resources together, that might be a great thing, like so you can help refer them to the therapist or refer them to the counselor or refer them to whatever it is their need like, I'm willing to find some resources with you to further help you on your journey. And I'm here for you while you're on that journey, right? [00:27:02]And so in the book Boundaries they talk about, there's a difference between being responsible for someone and being responsible to someone, you know. And so when you're responsible for when you're thinking you're responsible for someone, well, that's when you're taking on everything and all the actions and choices and what have you that they ultimately need to be making for themselves, you know? But when we're responsible to someone, it's just like, you know, I because I love you, right? And I'm here for you genuinely, and I'm here in an accountability kind of way, but I'm not going to do everything for you, right? [34.2s] Because that is enabling. And here's a I think the scary part about on the enabler side sometimes, and I know this is something I went through. You're afraid that if you don't take responsibility for this person, if you don't do everything for this person, if you I don't know if you kind of loosen that tie that they're going to go self-destruct like that something really bad is going to. Right? I mean, I've been there. You're afraid something bad is really going to happen to them. And if you're not there, something bad is going to happen, you know, and that is the hard part. That is a really hard part. And that's where one I think it's really great to walk with people to find resources or support groups so that they have other sources of support other than you to help keep them. I mean, I need that in my own life, you know? [00:28:23]But to the harder part is that people also need consequences. You know, and some people who are very stubborn, who are unwilling to change, who maybe say a lot of words but never produce actions, the only way they will change is if they experience something that affects them in a way to where they cannot stay the same. Like, some people just need that hard realization. Some people do need to hit kind of a rock bottom to build back up from to get that real realization. [38.8s] And that's just really, really hard because obviously, if we care and love for someone, we want to protect them from everything that we can. But at the end of the day, we cannot make someone change. You know, all you all will continue doing is enabling it, and at some point they have to come to a place of accountability and responsibility for themselves, and that's where it gets a little difficult.

Jessica Honegger [00:29:29] I think about that fence analogy, and I think it's uncomfortable building a fence, you know, when you just shared the name because you just shared the yard with the neighbor and then it's like, Oh, I got to sweat all day on a Saturday and I got to dig holes. I mean, putting up a fence is work and it's effort. And yeah, I think that's where people just can stay in these patterns for years and years and years until there is something destructive or it takes them both down because really, sometimes the change in their mind, it's more uncomfortable to change than it is just to stay in the familiarity of the toxic place, you know, right?

Brittney Moses [00:30:10] And in an especially depends on like what someone's going through and also the length of time that that kind of codependent dynamic is taking place. Because obviously, if someone's just gone through something really like tragic or traumatic or really hard or they lost their job or whatever it is, and that's kind of an immediate crisis. There may be a heavier dependency in those harder times to just get back on their feet. So I don't want to, like negate that. Like, who cares what they're going through? Have your boundaries like, no, that's not what I'm saying. I don't believe in that at all. I believe in using wisdom and discernment and context, right? So there may be a time in the beginning, and that happens often in therapy sessions, where at first the person is really heavily depending on that therapist, you know, as that safe person in their life. Or maybe you're the only like, really safe person in their life right now. Maybe they're trying to pull out of something abusive or something that happened to them, right? And so that's where as the supportive person, right, you're there, you're there for them. But then at some point it's up to us to also kind of turn outward and say, OK, how can I refer or help partner with this person in getting what they need or to someone else who has more extensive capacity or resources in this area? It's really just that pivoting point that makes the difference, like, are you continuously having them rely on you? At what point do you pivot and say, OK, I've been here as far as I can. I've been here as far as my capacity and capabilities. Now we need to look at other systems of support and resources, and that's going to be better for both people at the end because you don't want them to be dependent on you. You don't want, you know, I mean, they probably don't need to be heavily dependent on you because they need autonomy for their own lives to build. So it's a trap for everyone. So it's OK, even though it can feel hard at the time, in the long run, it's healthier for everyone and you have to keep that in mind.

Jessica Honegger [00:32:05] So many golden nuggets social well-being. If you find yourself being alone in a relationship that is probably a big red flag, if you find yourself getting a lot of identity met in a relationship and you have cut off ties with a lot of other people, red flag so much goodness here. Thank you so much, Brittney. Now I know that you have a podcast, The Faith in Mental Wellness podcast with Brittney Moses, and then you're on Instagram and then you've got a website. Anything else we should know about what's coming up for you?

Brittney Moses [00:32:36] It's like all the things, right? That's pretty much the gist of it. As of right now, yeah, mostly on social media creating content around the mental health and wellness conversation. Things like this on the Faith and Mental Health podcast. Yeah, it's a it's a podcast talking about different dynamics of mental health, often from a faith based perspective, but also just kind of generally applicable. I like to think, yeah, we talk about all the things from both mental health professionals, psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, researchers and also those with lived experiences. Right? People have lived with the diagnosis who have lived through these things and what has helped them through experiential wisdom. And so we're kind of have both of those worlds going on, and it's a great place where we just get to deep dive into all these different mental health topics like codependency. So I'm so glad that we got to talk about this today and that you're doing this whole series. It sounds amazing.

Jessica Honegger [00:33:30] Thanks, Britney. Thanks for coming on.

Brittney Moses [00:33:32] Absolutely. Thanks, guys.

Jessica Honegger [00:33:38] I'm recording this voice over a couple days after Brittney and I's conversation and the sticky points that I'm still chewing on are two things. What is social wellness and how can we develop it? And what is healthy dependency? We all know that codependency is not our goal, but we still want to walk in relationships where we are depending upon one another. So good friends. By sharing this episode and other episodes in this series, you have made it the top downloaded Going Scared podcast series. So thank you so much for sharing it. And I love you guys. This whole series is under five hours and is highly bingeable, so we are about to wrap it up. Next week is our last week, but I would love for you to give this episode a share. Also, go give Brittney a follow. You can find her at Brittney Moses over on Instagram. All right, thank you so much for joining us on today's show. Our music is by Ellie Holcomb and I'm Jessica Honegger. Until next time, let's take each other by the hand and keep going scared.